DEUCE spin on oil filters!!!!

[cranetruck]

Kenny (Recovry4x4) brought something up a few weeks ago... cranking to build up oil pressure.

I noticed yesterday when I started the deuce that even with the filled oil filter (NAPA 1729xd), it took about 8 seconds before oil pressure began to build up. The reason, instant start. The truck had been sitting for several days, so it wasn't warmed up or anything, it just started the instant I hit the start button. Biodiesel with a residue of methanol may have something to do with it.

At first I thought something was amiss, but realized that cranking, naturally, must help get the oil flowing.

Only a prelubricator can solve that problem, since cranking is in itself running it dry, although more benign.

What I'm also saying is that "time to oil pressure" should include cranking time.

 

[nickd]

Good point, my truck starts quickly almost all the time.

 

[houdel]

To me it comes down to 2-3 seconds for full oil pressure vs 15-20 seconds for full oil pressure.

...Although ultimately I want a bypass filter and pre-lube system...

I'm with you JD, I just haven't been able to find a suitable pump yet for a pre lube system. I figure 15-30 psi at 10-20 gpm would work.

I have been giving a pre lube system a lot of thought. For an oil pick up I'd cut back the Turbo drain line a little bit, remove the drain line fitting from the block and replace it with a pipe tee. I'd wiggle some 3/8" or 1/2" copper tube in through the side of the tee and down the edge of the oil pan to near the bottom and secure it with a compression fitting, then reconnect the turbo drain to the top of the tee. I'd connect the copper tube to the suction side of the pump, run a hose from the outlet to the pre filter oil port on the filter housing, a little electrical work and I'd be done.

Got some thoughts on the bypass filter system too, but the pre lube system comes first. The only thing stopping me now is finding a 24V pump to use for the pre lube system.

 

[nickd]

John? Can we get an update on production and delivery of the first batch?

 

[dabtl]

I received this partial pm yesterday from John:

'I just got word from the Hastings people that their LF 433 filter which fits the adaptor is a 12 micron rated filter making it a finer filter than the Napa 1458 which is 16 microns which of course is finer than the 25 micron original filter elements that are spec'd for the multifuel military engine.'

 

[XJChief]

Where are we at with the production? I'd like to get one of these things!

 

[nickd]

I spoke to John last week he has 50 sets in production. This weekend is the MV show in his area and he is involved with the planning/running so we will hear from him next week

 

[OPCOM]

It's taken alot of consideration to come to this point, but salesmanship aside, products sell themselves. No salesman ever sold me something I did not want, much to their self-made frustration. People will pay the $300 for a tangible improvement, whether it focuses on faster pressure, finer filtration, whatever - even digging into the details of the available/supplied filters themselves could weigh as heavily on a decision as the complexity of the mechanical setup. There are always going to be features people like and do not like. For most, it won't stop them from improving things as long as they reach a clear decision on what approach they prefer. Decisions can be reached by philosophical, scientific, psychological, etc.. means. What are the priorities? fast pressure? low pressure drop? fine filtration? convenience? ruggedness?

No decision yet even though both current products (unless I missed one) offer a substantial and worthwhile "improvement".. I like many things about the excellent products, and so it comes down to what I don't prefer.
For one it's the complexity/vulnerability of the hoses and remote mount, and for the other it's the aluminum-on-steel aspect and the fact that anti-drainback filters can still eventually drain back via one route or another for those of us who start the truck cold once or twice a month. Does pre-cranking to oil it up help? It's a long way from the pump to the fitlers. maybe.. aside from there being less load on the bearings during cranking, there is no data.

I like the "low-micron can always full of oil" of the remote filter as much as I like the "simple spin-on and no vulnerable hoses" aspect of the other. decisions decisions..

In the end, optimum function is not merely a filter system improvement and not going to be only the $300. The silly oil delivery system designed into the truck means that it's going to need also a prelube system to go with it, no matter what filter system may be chosen. I hope this is taken by all parties as constructive criticism and not complaints.

 

[CCATLETT1984]

why not just use an oil accumulator to prelube the engine???

 

[gimpyrobb]

I believe the issue is how much oil (volume) would need to be accumulated to be effective.

 

[builder77]

why not just use an oil accumulator to prelube the engine???

With a mechanical preluber you can set it up to run for the five minutes needed to cool the turbo in addition to running at startup.

 

[cranetruck]

..... The silly oil delivery system designed into the truck ....

I hope this is not too far out of context, but there is a good reason for the self draining upside down canisters. I have brought it up a few times before and it's to be able to heat the oil in extreme cold weather.
I like improvements as well, but not at the expense of reducing the capabilities designed into this engine/truck.

How many other engines used by the military are equipped with self draining oil filters or are they compromising low temp capabilities? Was the problem solved in a different fashion by, say, heating the canisters?

In my XM757 with the LDS465-2 engine all designed at a later date, the upside down filter canisters were retained and even the three fuel filters were designed to be serviced from above. It's convenient and permits inspection of the filter elements.
Of course the fuel filters are pre pressurized....a pre-luber would be a nice addition and would not sacrifice low temp performance.
If one wanted to change filter elements more frequently, that can be done without adding oil each time.

Oh, if you do install a spin-on filter, add a filter "spanner" to your tool kit.

 

[houdel]

The silly oil delivery system designed into the truck means that it's going to need also a prelube system to go with it, no matter what filter system may be chosen. I hope this is taken by all parties as constructive criticism and not complaints.

why not just use an oil accumulator to prelube the engine???

As Bjorn pointed out, there IS a reason the oil filters were designed to drain, and that reason is to facilitate engine starting in extremely cold weather conditions. And I believe OPCOM is correct in stating that even with full filters, a prelube system may still be needed.

I did a little math. The capacity of the Deuce oil pump is given as 20-26 gpm (I assume at 2600 rpm, although that was not stated). The Deuce oil pump is a gear type, so oil flow is roughly proportional to engine rpm. Thus, at a typical 800 rpm engine idle speed, the pump is flowing roughly 6.15 to 8 gpm. Most everyone seems to report that on a cold start it takes about 15 seconds after engine start for oil pressure to start to rise (I timed my Deuce yesterday, it took 14 seconds from engine start before the OP needle started to move). That means it takes roughly 1.5 to 2 gallons of oil to fill the system before pressure builds.

Where does that oil go? The cannisters take about 2 quarts each, that leaves another 1/2-1 gallon before pressure builds. The remainder goes to fill the pickup and oil passages leading to the filter, top off the oil cooler, and fill the galleries between the cooler and oil pressure sender.

Thus, even with the oil filters filled, there will still be a 6-8 second delay while all the oil passages fill before oil pressure will start to build. I believe Bjorn mentioned in one of his posts an 8 second delay for pressure even with the remote filters. That is one good reason for the prelube system. Another good reason is that in the rare case of an oil pump failure, if the engine still runs and the prelube system has a 100% duty cycle, the prelube system provides a limited backup to either get your Deuce home or at least to a safe haven off the road.

CCATLETT1984: - Mike, most of the accumulators I've seen are around 2 quart capacity, that is not enough to do the job. Plus the accumulator, although maybe cheaper, is a one shot affair. If your engine doesn't start right off you don't get a second chance. If I'm going to spend enough for a 2 gallon accumulator I'd rather spend a few more bucks for a prelubricator. Plus, as builder77 pointed out, you can use a prelubricator to cool down the turbo as well.

 

[Banshee365]

If the only problem with the accumulator is that if you don't crank on the first shot you start dry then what's the differance between that and how they are designed without an accumulator. If it happens one out of ten times it's still better than how it was designed.


I have a question. The motor was designed this way and it is normal operation for the oil pressure to lag 10-15 seconds behind after engine start. My thinking is the military rebuilds and replaces engine so much that they aren't looking for 20 year longevity like us civi's are. I'd really like to put a pre-lubricator in my truck or some sort. I hear a knock in the engine until the oil pressure builds then it goes to a very very slight knock then to almost nothing that is noticable. Is that something to be concerned about or is it considered normal? I might send an oil sample off on this next oil change which will be 1 year old and i'm sure will be diluted with oil alot but it may or may not show abnormal bearing wear. Also, what's the max time a truck should sit without starting? I've been cranking it at least once a week and driving it around but my batteries have been dead so it's been a few weeks. Seems like if you wait under a week there would still be a little oil on the bearings to help that 10-15 seconds.

-Kelly

 

[builder77]

houdel I am wondering where you got the figure for the deuce oil pump making 20-26gpm? If you are getting that figure from the max flow of each of the 1133 filter combined I think you may be too high. I am highly suspect that the deuce is not designed to full that full flow. I suspect that the military made sure that there was extra flow capacity in order to allow cold oil to get thru in a cold startup.

Banshee I am probably wrong, but I think the military was expecting these things to last only a few months in combat, so they did not care about dry starts. They just wanted to make sure they would start in the widest set of conditions. Also unless I am mistaken that knock that you are hearing is metal to metal contact in the engine which is never good. My engine does the same thing where is quiets down considerable after the pressure goes up.

 

[cranetruck]

houdel I am wondering where you got the figure for the deuce oil pump making 20-26gpm? ...

From the TM....

 

[yellobronc]

Ok, is it possible to get these somewhere?

 

[nickd]

yes contact john tennis, jatonka on this site

 

[bottleworks]

...Thus, even with the oil filters filled, there will still be a 6-8 second delay while all the oil passages fill before oil pressure will start to build. I believe Bjorn mentioned in one of his posts an 8 second delay for pressure even with the remote filters.

I am all for a pre-lube system, however, I just want to comment on the post quoted above...
I believe Bjorn's 8 seconds of time-til-pressure is due to his engine failure. He is, unfortunately, having some bearing failure. His lower pressure readings will be expected. Once he gets his lower end back in shape, I believe he will see much lower time-til-pressure results. I have results, not the "6-8 second delay" theory. These results are not new. I have been running dual remote 51970XD filters sense February. I am getting aprox 3 seconds until pressure. I have found that if there is a leak in the system (even a very, very small one), such as around the canister bases, it will increase time-til-pressure. When I had a small leak, the times would creep up towards 5-6 seconds. With the leak repaired, it returns to the typical 3 seconds.

 

[cranetruck]

The filter I installed uses 3/4 inch hoses which are above the original filter bases and will drain after engine shut down. That will delay time to pressure.
IMHO, the crank time should be included in the "time-to-oil pressure".

A further note, at start-up, with cool oil, the pressure hits 40 psi and stays above 30 for 20 minutes or more, my bearing/knocking problem doesn't effect the results an awful lot.
6-8 seconds is what it takes, more if crank time is included. With original filters, about 15 seconds.