M1009: Electrical issues (12v conversion)

[I_Publius]

Background:
I purchased an '04 M1009 through an online auction a couple of months ago. It was not, and is not running. Body seems to be in good shape and then engine does not appear to be seized up. Transmission moves freely and the front lockers seem as though they may be functional. The Sheriff's Dept in Texas seems to have converted it to 12v, at some point, but I'm not sure of the quality of work.

Since purchasing it I have done the following:

• changed oil
• changed fuel filter
• emptied old diesel and replaced with fresh diesel
• had the 12v starter rebuilt
• replaced glow plugs
• cleaned connections at firewall and battery
• new Group 31 batteries from a large, green battery company (not "eco" green, btw)
• Purchased new radiator hoses to replace, at some point soon
• Replaced the ignition switch on steering column
• new air filter

I have tried, as recently as last night, to start her, but she won't turn over. Each time I try, she seems to be closer to firing, but not yet.

Last night, after trying for 10 minutes to start her, I smelled smoke, again. I crawled under the truck and saw that the starter was glowing red and that the battery cable to starter was caught between a bracket and a bolt on the starter. It was arcing and had burnt the cable. I southern engineered a solution for the time being by wrapping it with black electrical tape. I tried again and this time still smelled smoke. I looked again and saw that the top of the starter was glowing red, from the heat. (I pray it's not a ruined starter)

Attached are a few pics of the battery setup. I believe they are running in parallel, but would like someone to verify.

What else can I be looking for? I know it's a 12v setup and that changes the game, but it shouldn't be too difficult.

Any suggestions as to why the starter is heating up like it is? Did I mis-wire the connections to the starter? The big battery cable is obvious, of course, but what about the small wires going to it?

Below are pics of my battery and cable set up.

I would appreciate any ideas on what to search for in the numerous topics covered so well in the forum.

thanks, in advance.

View attachment 447376View attachment 447377View attachment 447378View attachment 447379

 

[dstang97]

I was in the same boat as you. Best advice I can give you is to return it to stock. Minus the starter relay.

 

[I_Publius]

That is definitely in the back of my head as an option!

 

[bigginstactical]

Are you sure it is set up for 12 volt? What reason do you have to believe it is that way?

 

[K9Vic]

Is the red cable from the -Neg post the same red cable that goes to the bolt in the frame? Why did they use a red cable for that, that is visually wrong and makes for head scratching when trouble shooting.
You need to look for any exposed installation on the wires first of all. I would pull the cable that goes from the battery to the starter and inspect it.

Yes your batteries are in Parallel, that is running +Pos to +Pos for 12 volts.


If you can post a wider picture of the battery area and also a even wider one that may be clear showing the glow plug relay. That may give use a better visual of what you have.

I had to flipped these to see them better.

 

[K9Vic]

Are you sure it is set up for 12 volt? What reason do you have to believe it is that way?

Because it has A/C and one alternator and is very common conversion when adding A/C to remove the driver side Alt for the system. The problem is that most do not do it correctly and causes these problems.

 

[Recovry4x4]

Sometimes it takes many cycles of bleeding to get the system up for starting. How long are you cranking on the starter? There may be nothing wrong at all except cranking tge starter too long.

 

[bigginstactical]

Hmm weird I guess I missed the fact that it had ac. I don't know exactly what switching to 12 volt entails but i know when mine wouldn't start I installed a new wire from the starter solenoid to the doghead relay to make sure there was not a break or fuse-able link problem. In doing so I found the previous owner had broken the doghead relay internally, swapped it out and started fine. In any case running temporary wire might help eliminate some problems and narrow it down. Also I removed all grounds and made sure they were clean and it also wont hurt to add a few more while your at it. Check whatever fuse able links are left after the conversion also.

 

[K9Vic]

Make sure no -NEG cables are being routed to anything +POS. Looking at Pic #2 the top power buss is for +POS power and would be 12v. The smaller bottom buss is -NEG and that black -NEG cable in the front should be connected there. The incorrect red cable on the rear battery -NEG post should hopefully be the one on the frame in pic #4. Batteries are 12v setup, and the rear battery +POS should go to the large top power buss.

Cabling is a mess, it it were my truck I would redo everything so I know it is 12v using the Roscomm as a guide. Not sure why there are so many cables on the rear batteries 12v post, but seems to be too many for what is needed.

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View attachment 447405

#2


#3


#4
View attachment 447404

 

[Warthog]

Hmm weird I guess I missed the fact that it had ac..

We discovered that in some of his other posts.

 

[Skinny]

How bad do you need this thing to run and charge? If you are in a hurry, wire up those batts in parallel. Run a charge cable to the alternator, remove alternator and install a self exciting regulator. That will get you up and running. Then you have some time to figure out what was done, stay 12v or convert back to 24v, purchase extra parts, etc.

If you don't need it running, just pull it apart to see what's going on. The one wire alternator regulator will set you back $30 so it's cheap money to get that truck on the road.

 

[I_Publius]

I think that may be the case. I was definitely trying to start it for a good five minutes and not giving it much rest in between cranks. that helps me, mentally. thanks!

 

[I_Publius]

Thanks, Guys. All those posts will help me. I can handle most mechanical issues, but electrical always fries my mind.

I think I'm going to work on re-wiring her, once I find where to get the correct harness.

In the meantime, I need to find more information about this alternator regulator trick. I like the idea, as I just want to get her running, so I can see if she's a keeper!

Thanks to all.

 

[Warthog]

The time I have used for years is 15 seconds cranking and 1-2 minutes cooling. YMMV

 

[I_Publius]

Patience...I'll give that a shot.
Hopefully I haven't fried the newly rebuilt starter!

 

[Skinny]

You want something like this:

http://www.dbelectrical.com/p-8255-148-volt-regulator-delco-10si-12si-15si-17si-27si-8040-6241.aspx

The picture is generic, it will not have the connections for the two wire plug. Self exciting only needs a charge wire. I will warn you that they suck but will get the job done. They typically need to rev up pretty high on engine start up to get going and tend to drop off a bit at idle but will work. Won't be too bad with two batts. Warning that there is no charge light and will not tell you if the charge voltage is bad. Most hod rod guys use these because they are simple but less than ideal. Consider it temporary.

BTW: I've never used that vendor, just threw up that link to show you what you're looking for.

 

[Warthog]

When you where cranking the engine, did you happen to see if there was any smoke coming out of the tailpipe? White Black, gray?

Did the truck seem like it was trying to start at all?

An old trick is to have someone cover the tailpipe with a rag as you are cranking. It allows the "hot" air to stay in the cylinder longer and help warm things up.

When a gas, "air/fuel" is compressed, heat is given off. This is how diesels work. The mixture is compressed and heated to the point of combustion. That is why glowplugs are used on some diesels.To help speed up the process.

Send me a PM on what you schedule is for labor day weekend.

 

[Skinny]

Puffing smoke would indicate fuel but no combustion, ie. low compression or glow plugs correct?

 

[markg]

if you are seeing smoke while cranking your almost there! if you could just put a jumper on the glow plug relay for a couple of seconds ill bet it will fire up!. i also noticed your primer bulb on your filter assembly, crack the line on the ip side and make sure you can see fuel flowing there. im sure it wants to run! thanks. mark

 

[I_Publius]

I've been working by myself with no one around to help check on smoke, but I'll see if I can rig something to get a view of the tailpipe area while cranking, even if it's just setting my iphone up nearby and recording it. Modern redneck engineering!

I just replaced the glowplugs. They were the AC13's, which everyone seems to not like, but I was trying to rush and see if I could get her to start without converting each wire to a wider plug receptacle. In theory, they should be working fine....(in theory)