Where to find differential lockers?

[rustystud]

I've kept my proverbially mouth shut on this issue so far, but there is some really misleading information out here. I have worked in the HEAVY TRUCK/ EQUIPMENT repair field for over 36yrs. now as a "ASE' certified Master Mechanic .(just to show my credentials) Most of that time was gear repair (transmission, differential, transfer case). I have seen the results of a locked differential on a large truck (the spiders broke and jammed) and it was not pretty ! The truck lost control and crashed. There is a reason manufacturers put differentials in vehicles ! On the trail, great no problem if you like to throw dirt and mud around, but on the road you need the axles to be able to rotate at the different speeds of the inner to outer wheel or you will loose road contact with one of the wheels , ie wheel spin . As far as axles breaking due to load shock, yes if you drive full throttle like a maniac you will have axle shock and breakage. I personally don't drive like a raped ape and have never broken an axle, and yes I drive offroad. In fact I drove offroad before it became a "thing to due" fad. About "lockers" I have no problem, if there used in the right situation. I have replaced a lot of axles due to "lockers" grabbing when a driver would accelerate in a turn, and a lot of "U-joints" too. Don't get me wrong, "lockers" can be a life saver in a wet, muddy, slippery situation when you need that traction, but that is not on average a daily occurrence. I myself like "air lockers" or "electric shift lockers" since you apply them only when needed. Your tires and drivelines and U-joints and steering linkages will love you for it ! So now all you young bucks with your "personal" experience can start to flame me .

 

[TehTDK]

So a spooled differential can be compared to a T with the input axle delivering power to both axles simultaniously but without either axle being able to "over run" or run at a mismatched speed?

 

[rustystud]

So a spooled differential can be compared to a T with the input axle delivering power to both axles simultaniously but without either axle being able to "over run" or run at a mismatched speed?

Yes, both wheels will have the same torque applied to them, with no ability to "over run" the other wheel. Thus you have a wheel spinning when you deviate from a straight line. Wheel spin means lose of control. I was going to add in my last post that the best way to describe a "locker" is that it acts like a hand ratchet tool. The wheel over spinning is like turning the ratchet. That is why you will hear and feel a clunk-clunk-clunk coming from the differential on a turn. The best type of differential traction control that is self regulating is the "gleason/torson" . The military agrees with me and has installed this type of traction control in many of it's vehicles. There are a few manufacturers of this system out there, but no one makes it for our "Rockwell" differential that I know of . So the best system for our riggs is the "air-locker" . Since I'm not independently wealthy I cannot afford this system, so I will stick with the factory system for now. Now if I win the Lotto all bets are off !!!

 

[M-1028]

I've kept my proverbially mouth shut on this issue so far, but there is some really misleading information out here. I have worked in the HEAVY TRUCK/ EQUIPMENT repair field for over 36yrs. now as a "ASE' certified Master Mechanic .(just to show my credentials) Most of that time was gear repair (transmission, differential, transfer case). I have seen the results of a locked differential on a large truck (the spiders broke and jammed) and it was not pretty ! The truck lost control and crashed. There is a reason manufacturers put differentials in vehicles ! On the trail, great no problem if you like to throw dirt and mud around, but on the road you need the axles to be able to rotate at the different speeds of the inner to outer wheel or you will loose road contact with one of the wheels , ie wheel spin . As far as axles breaking due to load shock, yes if you drive full throttle like a maniac you will have axle shock and breakage. I personally don't drive like a raped ape and have never broken an axle, and yes I drive offroad. In fact I drove offroad before it became a "thing to due" fad. About "lockers" I have no problem, if there used in the right situation. I have replaced a lot of axles due to "lockers" grabbing when a driver would accelerate in a turn, and a lot of "U-joints" too. Don't get me wrong, "lockers" can be a life saver in a wet, muddy, slippery situation when you need that traction, but that is not on average a daily occurrence. I myself like "air lockers" or "electric shift lockers" since you apply them only when needed. Your tires and drivelines and U-joints and steering linkages will love you for it ! So now all you young bucks with your "personal" experience can start to flame me .

Your experience is simply different from mine. I deal only with modifying 4 wheel drive vehicles, so I'd like to think I have more knowledge in that area than an average mechanic. We replace a bunch of u joints, axles, hubs, bent housings etc... you name it we have broke it. Long story short, unless the locker itself fails, it doesn't cause other parts to break. Will it cause more wear on drive train components? In my experience no, maintenance and how the rig is driven are the deciding factor. Blaming a failure in the driveline on a locker is almost impossible to prove, an open diff could cause the same failure in the same situation.

 

[rustystud]

Your experience is simply different from mine. I deal only with modifying 4 wheel drive vehicles, so I'd like to think I have more knowledge in that area than an average mechanic. We replace a bunch of u joints, axles, hubs, bent housings etc... you name it we have broke it. Long story short, unless the locker itself fails, it doesn't cause other parts to break. Will it cause more wear on drive train components? In my experience no, maintenance and how the rig is driven are the deciding factor. Blaming a failure in the driveline on a locker is almost impossible to prove, an open diff could cause the same failure in the same situation.

Actually a "locker" does put more strain on a driveline and axles. Just like a modified automatic transmission does (which I have built quite a few of ). Whenever you have a component which causes a harsh engagement you will experience shock load to your system. Just start to dump your clutch every time you shift. It won't take long for something to fail. The same with the "lockers" . Anyone who has driven a vehicle with a "locker" in it knows how harsh it can engage, especially going around a corner, and half way through accelerating fast. The engagement can be quite jarring ! I know this from building differentials for the 4X4 crowd around here. Some have come back to have me install a standard "posi" unit after they have broken a few parts. After all my years in this business it isn't hard to "prove" this. In fact call-up just about any honest 4X4 rebuild place and ask them yourself. Why do you think the Military has went with the "gleason/torson" differential ? To be able to have a differential that can get you unstuck (or not get stuck in the first place) without collateral damage to other parts. As far as experience goes I have been rebuilding differentials since the 70's , how long have you been in the business ? Maybe you do have more experience then I do.

 

[Mercunimog404]

Actually a "locker" does put more strain on a driveline and axles. Just like a modified automatic transmission does (which I have built quite a few of ). Whenever you have a component which causes a harsh engagement you will experience shock load to your system. Just start to dump your clutch every time you shift. It won't take long for something to fail. The same with the "lockers" . Anyone who has driven a vehicle with a "locker" in it knows how harsh it can engage, especially going around a corner, and half way through accelerating fast. The engagement can be quite jarring ! I know this from building differentials for the 4X4 crowd around here. Some have come back to have me install a standard "posi" unit after they have broken a few parts. After all my years in this business it isn't hard to "prove" this. In fact call-up just about any honest 4X4 rebuild place and ask them yourself. Why do you think the Military has went with the "gleason/torson" differential ? To be able to have a differential that can get you unstuck (or not get stuck in the first place) without collateral damage to other parts. As far as experience goes I have been rebuilding differentials since the 70's , how long have you been in the business ? Maybe you do have more experience then I do.

Or the military can just build the drivetrain to handle a locker.

 

[M-1028]

Actually a "locker" does put more strain on a driveline and axles. Just like a modified automatic transmission does (which I have built quite a few of ). Whenever you have a component which causes a harsh engagement you will experience shock load to your system. Just start to dump your clutch every time you shift. It won't take long for something to fail. The same with the "lockers" . Anyone who has driven a vehicle with a "locker" in it knows how harsh it can engage, especially going around a corner, and half way through accelerating fast. The engagement can be quite jarring ! I know this from building differentials for the 4X4 crowd around here. Some have come back to have me install a standard "posi" unit after they have broken a few parts. After all my years in this business it isn't hard to "prove" this. In fact call-up just about any honest 4X4 rebuild place and ask them yourself. Why do you think the Military has went with the "gleason/torson" differential ? To be able to have a differential that can get you unstuck (or not get stuck in the first place) without collateral damage to other parts. As far as experience goes I have been rebuilding differentials since the 70's , how long have you been in the business ? Maybe you do have more experience then I do.

We can agree to disagree I guess. Anyone that has driven a vehicle with a locker knows that if driven correctly it drives the same as a vehicle with an open diff. I'm not trying to argue, its just that there is no way to measure how much more or less wear a locked differential will cause to the drivetrain. Us having different experiences proves that point. You have been in the business longer than me, but I'm positive I have more hours in building, testing, breaking, and fixing modified off road rigs. Heck, my bobbed deuce has a welded rear diff and a front locker, it drives great on and off road.

 

[rustystud]

We can agree to disagree I guess. Anyone that has driven a vehicle with a locker knows that if driven correctly it drives the same as a vehicle with an open diff. I'm not trying to argue, its just that there is no way to measure how much more or less wear a locked differential will cause to the drivetrain. Us having different experiences proves that point. You have been in the business longer than me, but I'm positive I have more hours in building, testing, breaking, and fixing modified off road rigs. Heck, my bobbed deuce has a welded rear diff and a front locker, it drives great on and off road.

You never tell how long you have been in the industry. To say you have more experience you first have to tell use how long you have been doing this. I have worked on the military vehicles since I served 6yrs. in the Marine Corps. First in Tanks, then later in the Motor Pool. Trust me, those kids can break stuff like you've never seen ! I also repaired offroad equipment, including Dozers, and 4X4 vehicles. You have to make them work since the company is loosing money every minute the equipment is down. So sometimes you must improvise, like welding, cutting, fabricating etc. As far as your deuce goes, come up here in Washington and try and drive around in the ran and slush and see how your welded differential works ! After they pull you from the ditch a few times after loosing control maybe you'll change your mind . As far as the "lockers" never breaking anything, did you go and ask other 4X4 shops what they think ? I can guarantee you they will agree with me. Just remember "old age knowledge and guile will win out over youthful enthusiasm and book learning every time" .

 

[rustystud]

View attachment Detroit Locker No-Spin.pdfI will post this from Eaton themselves so you can read it and understand what I have been trying to tell you. I still want to know what kind of, and how long of experience you have M-1028 .

 

[Hainebd]

Lockers can cause loss of control. On newer over the road trucks, there is a differential in the front rear of a tamden that will allow the front or rear axle not to be powered just like side to side. They usually have an air switch for "Interlock" which locks the front and rear rears together. This gives you two wheel drive one front tire and one rear axle. And yes lockers are put in also. The key is to operate sensibly. These are big trucks. With lockers you my go further but when stuck, you are stuck. Tow bills can be in the thousands. Damage to your rig is expensive and damage to environment is detrimental to our hobby. A good friend told me during a discussion on needing 4x4 in the woods that "If you need 4x4, then you should not be there". I said it is fun.
Brian

 

[gimpyrobb]

Your buddy does not sound too bright. 4x4 off pavement keeps you from tearing thigs up.

 

[Mercunimog404]

You never tell how long you have been in the industry. To say you have more experience you first have to tell use how long you have been doing this. I have worked on the military vehicles since I served 6yrs. in the Marine Corps. First in Tanks, then later in the Motor Pool. Trust me, those kids can break stuff like you've never seen ! I also repaired offroad equipment, including Dozers, and 4X4 vehicles. You have to make them work since the company is loosing money every minute the equipment is down. So sometimes you must improvise, like welding, cutting, fabricating etc. As far as your deuce goes, come up here in Washington and try and drive around in the ran and slush and see how your welded differential works ! After they pull you from the ditch a few times after loosing control maybe you'll change your mind . As far as the "lockers" never breaking anything, did you go and ask other 4X4 shops what they think ? I can guarantee you they will agree with me. Just remember "old age knowledge and guile will win out over youthful enthusiasm and book learning every time" .

And that's why the Germans are smart enough to put selectable lockers in the Unimog. FYI I have driven a truck that was locked front and rear on ice. It's not hard to do. Just go slow.

 

[M-1028]

I guess you are correct, maybe ford, Chevy, jeep, Toyota and a couple other manufacturers should stop selling vehicles with locking diffs. I've driven a couple hundred miles on solid ice, my buddies truck, 2013 f 250 had the locker engaged the whole time. Tried it with it off and the truck wouldn't move. How is a good limited slip any different than a locker on ice? Seems to me that in a severe lack of traction situation the limited slip is basically locked.
Does you being in the industry longer make you smarter or better than me? I build 4x4 vehicles that deal specifically with locking diffs, if my knowledge is worth less than yours because I've been doing it for a shorter period, that's fine. I'll keep installing lockers and welding diffs and you can tell everyone how they made the wrong choice.

 

[M-1028]

And that's why the Germans are smart enough to put selectable lockers in the Unimog. FYI I have driven a truck that was locked front and rear on ice. It's not hard to do. Just go slow.

You didn't crash into the ditch?

 

[Mercunimog404]

You didn't crash into the ditch?

Believe it or not. I never went into the ditch. The key is driving responsibly and not like a tool bag. The benefits of a locker far out way the drawbacks.

 

[gimpyrobb]

Ha!

 

[welldigger]

How to start an argument on the internet.

Step 1: Post an opinion.

Step 2: Wait.

 

[gimpyrobb]

This too.

 

[SP5]

It's too bad that a big company like Eaton won't build a "Posi" unit for the Rockwell axles, might it be that the clutch pacs would not hold up in a heavy vehicle? I like the idea of the Gleason-Torsen type, in that it operates kinda like a sprag, engaging at a certain amount of "overrun".
No doubt that on pavement an open diff is much easier on parts and tires.

 

[gimpyrobb]

There was one limited slip I read about years ago that worked with gears instead of clutches. Is that what the Gleason diff works off of? I think that would be the "hot ticket".