Saurer 4K 4FA APC Prospective Purchase - Pro and Cons

[Carlo]

I'm now looking at the M1070 route to haul the MTB's. The price was down but with the demise of GL the prices are now out of my reach. Thanks for the complement.

 

[datadawg]

View attachment 521313View attachment 521314I transport my APC's with one of my 923's. With the exhaust and abc it's 3 meters wide which is over width. My SPZA1 is almost inside the limit.

I have an M923a2, but never considered (yet) getting a trailer and towing armor. I think I would have a heart attack. But it's probably a smart decision (and have some friends who are truck drivers and for a case of beer would drive half way to **** so I'm just sponging up your setup. I like the autonomy... plus, when I drive the 5 ton, I have some people look at me like I'm some kind of anarchist. I can just see pulling armor behind a 5 ton and most of the moms in minivans would just pull over and call 911.

 

[datadawg]

I'm now looking at the M1070 route to haul the MTB's. The price was down but with the demise of GL the prices are now out of my reach. Thanks for the complement.

Carlo, is that because the 5 ton isn't up to the task and you need something stronger?

 

[Carlo]

Carlo, is that because the 5 ton isn't up to the task and you need something stronger?

It pulls it with little problem. When I must go in hill terrain I use one of the A1's to pull. The A1 works harder and you can't beat extra cubes even though the A1 has no turbo. I only use the 923's to pull APC's.

 

[teletech]

I considered the Saurer when I was shopping, as you say the videos look great and you have to love the price and quality. I would strongly encourage you to buy all the spares you can at the time.
I finally decided to go with the British CVR(T) family from a spares availability and size standpoint, the idea of being able to read the manual and forums in a language I understand was also a selling point! You can get a nice shielder for ~$16000usd and a stormer for not too much more. If you are willing to go much smaller a Spartan is cool because it will fit in a standard shipping container (and likely your garage),since the later CVR(T) use a cummins diesel so at least you don't have to try hard to find motor spares.
There are some very cheap FV432s out there, but they are big and heavy for sure.
Import of ex-US armor I gather is pretty much a non-starter.
Whatever you do, assume it's going to cost more and take longer than you had hoped.
Good luck and have fun!

 

[Carlo]

I considered the Saurer when I was shopping, as you say the videos look great and you have to love the price and quality. I would strongly encourage you to buy all the spares you can at the time.
I finally decided to go with the British CVR(T) family from a spares availability and size standpoint, the idea of being able to read the manual and forums in a language I understand was also a selling point! You can get a nice shielder for ~$16000usd and a stormer for not too much more. If you are willing to go much smaller a Spartan is cool because it will fit in a standard shipping container (and likely your garage),since the later CVR(T) use a cummins diesel so at least you don't have to try hard to find motor spares.
There are some very cheap FV432s out there, but they are big and heavy for sure.
Import of ex-US armor I gather is pretty much a non-starter.
Whatever you do, assume it's going to cost more and take longer than you had hoped.
Good luck and have fun!

Well said. I agree 100%. Parts are easy to get and priced right for a 432. I have both the 432 and SPZA1.

 

[datadawg]

I considered the Saurer when I was shopping, as you say the videos look great and you have to love the price and quality. I would strongly encourage you to buy all the spares you can at the time.
I finally decided to go with the British CVR(T) family from a spares availability and size standpoint, the idea of being able to read the manual and forums in a language I understand was also a selling point! You can get a nice shielder for ~$16000usd and a stormer for not too much more. If you are willing to go much smaller a Spartan is cool because it will fit in a standard shipping container (and likely your garage),since the later CVR(T) use a cummins diesel so at least you don't have to try hard to find motor spares.
There are some very cheap FV432s out there, but they are big and heavy for sure.
Import of ex-US armor I gather is pretty much a non-starter.
Whatever you do, assume it's going to cost more and take longer than you had hoped.
Good luck and have fun!

Thank you for the analysis, this is why I love this forum. I am just trying to figure things out and have almost no knowledge about armor, having never served in any armed forces. My interest is borne from totally spontaneous combustion, so I have a lot to figure out. I am mostly interested in the following attributes (in no particular order)
- great off road performance, but also ability to use on road (ergo tracked must have rubber pads).
- affordability (I can justify sub $30K investment, above that it becomes a marital thorn)
- fun and cool factor (want to run it, say once a month, not just store and pray to armor god)
- functional. The more I learn about BTR and BRDM products, the less they appear to be easily drivable, due to poor visibility. Ideally, want to have out of hatch driving.
- practical maintenance... this is where the spares issue comes in. I probably can't work on these myself.

Any further input on what to consider would be great. I will start researching the machines you mention. If I do go Saurer route, any advice on specifically what I should try to purchase and ship with the unit? Am I asking to buy a whole engine or other major parts of the vehicle? Or just something like air/fuel/oil filters??

 

[teletech]

OK, more detail about your situation helps. $30K... that's tough... doable but tough. One thing that might help with the spouse if you are doing your own import is show her the prices of something already here vs. what you hope to spend. The other thing that makes me really fear for you is the stated inability to do your own work. The combination is not a show-stopper but really makes me want to suggest AT MOST wheeled armor.

I know I should have stuck with wheels, it would have saved me so much money over the life of the project... but in my heart I knew I needed tracks. Save yourself if you can, otherwise just get a second job and enjoy the ride!

Have you considered a ferret? It's armored, very well supported for knowledge and spares, they are street legal, have good performance and excellent resale value. You also are less likely to have a discussion with a LEO every time you go for a spin. A mostly decent one can be had inside your budget and the ability to drive it on the freeway simplifies logistics massively. OK, it's small and wheeled so you aren't going to go everywhere or take many of your friends along (the MK1, non-turret version is much roomier in this regard and less costly). If not the Ferret, do check out the stormer/shielder series ie. http://army-uk.info/equip.php?ID=591 the flat-bed gives you a lot of options (float in a local parade, drop on a cut-down container or a travel trailer) and they are by all accounts in very nice condition and pretty affordable. At least you can get parts for the engines in the US, you can read the manual, and there are some over here already.

Look carefully at what support base there is, not just vendors but forums and other owners. I know several CVR(T) and ferret owners, have touched vehicles and know there are many in the country. I wanted a hotchkiss AFV but gave it up because I would have about the only one I knew of in the states and there was NO english language owner or service manual, I considered your Saurer too. Check youtube, how many videos can you find of your chosen vehicle being driven? Is there anyone in your area who has one? More important is does anybody in the US have one they are parting out because no matter how many spare parts you have there is the risk of some obscure part that never fails so nobody has one, well guess what, yours did fail and now you need one. I'd also worry a bit that the US govt will ban armor imports and then how do you get parts?

I know you think it will erode your financial situation but seriously and I mean SERIOUSLY consider buying a plane ticket to go touch one of whatever you are considering buying, a lot of these are small inside and hard to get into and out of (there is a joke that you don't get into a Scorpion, you put it on). If you can find one in the states so much the better, see note above.

Some good news is if you have ANY mechanical ability you can likely follow the service manual and keep it going for the most part, after all most soldiers are young and not particularly well educated and they are still expected to do basic service (because armor needs so much of it, you have been warned, again) so get a manual and read up.

Now for some possibly detailed help about your specific questions:
This information is biased to Brit armor but some is generally applicable...
Spares:
Those track pads look cool and seem like a great idea (and are) but know that's not the only wear area on track, modern "live" track has bushings between the links that are rubber and will degrade so having an endless supply of pads might not keep you rolling (crawling). With that in mind you really should have a spare set of track. If you can't make that work get at least 1/2 of a track as links seem to wear unevenly and that is the amount that will buy you some time. Seems like track is expected to live no more than about 3000 miles and you really don't want to be around if you throw a track.
Track pads, buy them if you can but people do make molds for new/refurbished ones so you might not need an infinite supply. A couple dozen is a good start. Why don't all tracks have replaceable pads, well throwing a pad can be a hazard since they weigh some pounds and returning track has 2x your road speed, some rusty fasteners and you get the picture.
Road wheels, get some spares. I'd say 4 at a minimum.
Sprockets, at least one spare set per set of tracks.
A couple torsion bars, shock absorbers, idler arms, road wheel hubs.
You should at least consider a whole engine and transmission but small parts will help.
Brake pads, a couple sets and many track-layers have both steering brakes and stopping brakes.

All the spares you can afford and then some more... remember that the only things you will be able to buy at an auto parts store are batteries and oil, even a simple thing like a headlight is going to be hard (24V electrical). I'm not trying to discourage you but know what you are up against.

Don't be in too much of a rush, the exchange rate is going your way right now and sometimes you find a bargain. Speaking of which, work out if your bank or credit card will give you a good exchange rate with minimal fees and all that boring paperwork.

One site which I found helpful in my pondering about armor purchase:
http://www.livesteammodels.co.uk/dhmg/
You can also find specialty forums for many specific platforms: http://wwwfv432couk.freeforums.org/index.php http://www.ferret-afv.org/ http://www.alvisoc.org/

If you aren't browsing millweb, do so.

Disclaimer: I've done some research and fondled a bunch of armor but I've not yet driven any, I've purchased some but am still working through the shipping...so listen to those who have first.

once agian, have fun with it and good luck,
P_

 

[teletech]

I almost forgot, if you are going to bring one over do your import research. There are several good threads here but a couple points and suggestions:

look in the services classifieds for a shipper and ask if they have ever moved a _ (whatever you want) and some idea of price.
RORO shipping can be much cheaper but you can't really bring many spares over that way, if you spend the money for a container you can load up on spares but then you have to buy small armor (Ferret, Spartan,etc) also a 40' container isn't much more costly to move than a 20' so if you can find a like-minded soul who wants to split one that can help a lot. Try to avoid doing what I did, buy a second vehicle for parts and then decide you want that one too so have a third vehicle stripped and packed as spares in the container, it gets expensive.

You might be able to manage shipping and import fees for $5k but assume you might need as much as $10K when you make up your budget.

 

[teletech]

last thing, I promise.

It is common for the British vehicles to have been lavished with attention. Perhaps because they have no guns then direct the energy elsewhere but they don't really seem to count the effort in restoration and repair as having value like we would so you can get a real bargain restoration-wise where in eastern Europe their labor cost is very low and they are motivated so I have seem some immaculate there as well.
I guess my point is if you aren't looking forward to doing a restoration yourself it is far better to stretch your budget now than later and get the nicest armor you can.
I went the other way, I'll do all my own work so I spent the money on piles of parts, we'll see how it works out for me.

Also, get tools. Many tracked vehicles have some special track tools or other stuff like that that makes an otherwise almost impossible job merely difficult and exhausting.
Not sure about the Saurer but in general: jacking struts, track pin punches, track clamps.

 

[Carlo]

On one sour note countries like Germany require a certificate of permission to pass. An APC is a weapon to them and this transport permission is a must. It takes months to receive.
I stongly suggest using a broker who knows these rules and laws in Europe. They are a few on milweb.net who speak your language, insured and with references.

 

[datadawg]

Teletech, thanks for the thorough and sobering input. I now am starting to realize why the same thing Stateside is running 2x what it sells in EE. I got a quote for Saurer for 15K Euro from Austria, and waiting to talk to a guy from STV and also mortar investments, both in Czech Republic. I now understand the most important parameter is condition of the unit, spares that can be bought and their experience with logistics... not initial purchase price. I was strongly considering Saurer as 1st place candidate based on Carlo's opinion it's a lot better quality than FV432. I also like that it can be driven while head out of hatch (at least that is what some youtube vids show) and has track pads. I need to research engine and driveline durability though. Carlo, any thoughts on that?

 

[Carlo]

If I remember correctly you said you have a 30 grand usd budget, right? I don't see who you can be inside this budget with a SPZA1. You have 15 grand euro to but it let's say USD 17 to 19 grand depending on when you make the exchange. Plus transport to a port. The countries you speak of as sellers Are land locked. You must go to a Baltic, or Italian port if you want close BUT these might be more expensive in RO/RO (roll on roll off ships) IF they have service coming out of there. Truck transport in Europe is a monster in costs PLUS you will pay a premium for permits. You can't haul a tank in many European countries with our permission. Your cheapest ports back to the USA are Rotterdam, Bremen, or UK. Getting the tank there can cost from 3500 to 4250 Euro to USD 5 grand, no? just in transport plus permits. Now your RO/RO costs to eastern USA ports are how much? I'm not up to date on this but in 2004 I shipped a tank from the USA Baltimore to Rotterdam and I paid 10 grand usd. That was 8 years ago. Plus in the USA you pay import tax or no? That would be tax on the value of the 15 grand APC.
I don't want to burst your bubble but I see you hard pressed doing this for 30 grand usd with the APC coming out of Eastern Europe. The uk on the other hand has low cost 432's right now and the uk has ports close everywhere. Plus The UK is closer to the USA so it must be cheaper RO/RO ship costs.
Do some research on import restrictions bring a APC into the USA. Do some research on shipping costs, transport costs to get the APC from the sellers place to the port. I doubt he will do this for free.
I think you can get it done in your budget buying a 432 from the uk but I feel it's going to be hard to make this happen from a Eastern European seller.
Oh I read you saying you want your head out when you drive the APC, right? The 432 can give you this. The seat adjust to where you want to be just like the SPZa1.
Sorry my English could be better.

 

[Austringer]

Just go with a XM706.

Street legal
Spares for engine are found at NAPA
Other parts are easy, except the transfer case

Plus it will do 55 without too much problem and you can drive it short sprints on the interstate.

Jason

 

[martinwcox]

I have an M923a2, but never considered (yet) getting a trailer and towing armor. I think I would have a heart attack. But it's probably a smart decision (and have some friends who are truck drivers and for a case of beer would drive half way to **** so I'm just sponging up your setup. I like the autonomy... plus, when I drive the 5 ton, I have some people look at me like I'm some kind of anarchist. I can just see pulling armor behind a 5 ton and most of the moms in minivans would just pull over and call 911.

I used to haul my Scorpion behind my M923, it worked but the 250 Cummins on a long hill climb sucked and no Jake brake on a long down hill was no fun either. Ended up getting an M915A1, removed the 5th wheel and put a deuce bed on the back (I have a pintle trailer.)

 

[L1A1]

Just go with a XM706.

Street legal
Spares for engine are found at NAPA
Other parts are easy, except the transfer case

Plus it will do 55 without too much problem and you can drive it short sprints on the interstate.

Jason

An XM706 (or V100) would be way outside the OP's 30k budget...

Matt

 

[wideload]

We have 4 in our collection in the UK, 2 are for sale, all in nice running order. They are the easiest tracked armour in the world to drive.

 

[Another Ahab]

Outside the Box

I guess a smart man would buy two units and use one for parts!

'
Or, fire up all your friends and neighbors, and start a local fleet

 

[datadawg]

We have 4 in our collection in the UK, 2 are for sale, all in nice running order. They are the easiest tracked armour in the world to drive.

Wideload, I am interested in learning more about your units for sale. I tried sending you PM awhile ago. If you still have them available for sale, maybe you can PM me your contact info or details on the units and prices?

 

[Carlo]

I sent a PM also but no reply.