Fun with PA DOT officer ending in putting me out of service + $1200 in fines

[Demoh]

Didnt know where to put this, but hopefully some people learn from my experience and make sure they have their ducks in a row when self-transporting or traveling in general. And this isnt meant to be a negative post by any means, just wanted to share my experience this weekend. I didnt see any other place for this sort of thing.

It all started when a friend bought a gen from letterkenny and I decided to grab a cheap non-runner and get both in 1 trip to save on transport. So I connected my dually to my friends trailer and we headed up there. Trip was uneventful until 5 miles from the GP letterkenny yard. I knew we were pushing it with fuel levels, but ended up sputtering so we pulled over and I threw 5 gallons in. Restarted but enough air got in to cause the fuel pump to lose prime. Not a big deal because all I had to do was pull the fuel line off and suck on the pump until I get a mouthful of diesel. I was under the truck when I was greeted with some boots asking my friend some questions.

So, when it comes to cops I normally really like them and I make it easy on them when writing me a ticket (because normally I was speeding and no use trying to get out of it) but this guy was a prick. First, after talking about the situation he said I had 5 minutes before he called a wrecker to get the truck out of the road. Well I had the truck started in 2. Ok no problem so far I figure that was it, but no, he had me pull off into a parking lot for something worse.

This guy proceeded to ask for my log book, medical card, insurance, registrations, and DOT number. Wait, log book? medical card? What was this guy smoking? Im in a pickup truck for crying out loud. Confused, I said I dont have a log book or medical card because I dont have a CDL. I dont have a DOT number because Im not commercial. Well he informed me with my weights that I was over the limit and that makes my truck a commercial vehicle. Wait what??!!

I drive a F350 crew cab long bed dually. I was pulling a tandem axle flatbed. I have florida plates. So GVW of 11200 and 7000 is 18200. And my ignorance to commercial driving (I drive a lot, I haul a lot, but nothing CDL worthy) didnt know that anything over 17000 puts you in the commercial realm when you leave your home state. Ive only done some minor after the fact research on this so maybe its true, maybe not. I see plenty of duallys hauling car haulers with DOT numbers but they are all for-hire. I am not. I dont haul for anybody but myself.

After he wasnt happy about me denying I was commercial, he proceeded to conduct a full DOT vehicle inspection. lights, trailer brakes, windshield wipers, ask where my fire extinguisher and triangles were, etc... Well the trailer had electric brakes on 1 axle and didnt have a breakaway. After a few trips from his van to me and about an hour of time, he came back with a ticket... Mind you this ticket is 7 feet long.

My charges include:
operated or permitted to operate a vehicle not equipped as required (no medical certificate) $90
operated or permitted to operate a vehicle not equipped as required (no carrier name and DOT number displayed) $115
operated motor carrier vehicle... with hazardous brake system (no breakaway) $365 <----- this is the only legitimate ticket I see
operate or allow to operate motor carrier vehicle in violation of driver out-of-service criteria (no drivers record of duty status when one is required) $604

which the last one had the following inspection report:
no drivers record of duty status
no medical cert
no drivers record (for my friend who drove halfway)
no medical cert (for him as well)
carrier name and DOT not displayed
no fire extinguisher
no warning devices
failure to register for DOT number
inspection/repair/maint of parts and accessories (dually fender missing) <---- ok yes I know some states are sticklers for not having a mudflap
operating commercial vehicle without proof of periodic inspection
no/improper breakaway system on trailer
no brakes as required (rear axle brakes inop) <----- it didnt come with brakes from the factory so yes it failed to lock up you idiot


So he put the trailer out of service for the breakaway and said it cannot move until repaired and I must have the person who repaired the trailer sign and mail/fax this part of the ticket in within 15 days. Ok no problem, my friend is a mechanic and ive done a lot of wrenching myself, we can have this done in an hour.

Now here is the fun one: he put both of us out of service for 10 hours because he suspected we havent had a rest from our trip from florida and we cant prove it because of no logs. He said if my vehicle was 9999lbs GVW I could drop the trailer and drive only the truck, but its over 10000lbs so its commercial and therefore we cannot drive it. He advised getting a tow. We could drive a car though. And the fine for breaking out of service 1st offense is $2500. So he basically pinned my butt to the wall over some crappy laws where in florida I am not commercial but as soon as I go from intrastate to interstate the weight limits change and I am now commercial. It was 46° out with not enough fuel to idle even half of 10 hours.

Here's the best part. The letterkenny GP yard is only open Mon-Thu 8-2, gates closing at 2pm sharp. Well it was thursday at 12 when we got done with this guy. Due to not being able to drive without fear of a 2500 fine (which I was sure he had somebody watching us, and I already know the DOT is no joke) this would blow the entire trip that involved days off work and a LOT of fuel because we would miss picking up these generators. so I had to hire a tow truck to go to the yard and grab both generators and bring them back to the parking lot we were sitting in. theres another $350 but we really didnt have a choice. Hey, we got them though. The bill was only so expensive because the trailer winch was left behind so we had to have the tow truck assist with loading our trailer (when the GP yard would have just forklifted them onto the trailer in a matter of seconds)

As for the trailer, we used my friend's napa account to have them deliver required supplies to install a breakaway system on the trailer. That was done before we were picked up by the towtruck.

And now that the generators were all loaded and strapped, the trailer was now road worthy according to the DOT, the only thing now is to wait the rest of the 10 hours. Well, we were all wet from the rain a it was 46° out and thats not a fun time. Luckily about when we were finishing up somebody from the church who's parking lot we were in pulled up and it was the maintenance guy. We told him what happened and he opened up the barn, turned the heat on, and helped us out. We ended up moving over to the church itself and after talking to the pastor this is where things get crazy.

Apparently there are 2 things going on in PA. 1) DOT is subcontracted out 2) that company gets commission. So I got written a $1200 ticket by a rent a cop.... (there was a trooper there which now I understand was only there to make it official). and 3) They sit around letterkenny looking for trucks like mine with out of state plates because they had more than a few stories about similar DOT things happening around here.

At the end of the day, Im going to lawyer up and fight it because its complete BS. The premise of what happened is far outweighs if I was breaking the law or not (which in the spirit of the law I was not, but nobody cares about that these days)... Ive never fought anything like this before because ive never been wrongly charged with anything.

So if anybody has any experience with this sort of thing, I am all ears. so far the people ive talked to say it will likely get dropped, but that doesnt fix the fact that it happened when it shouldnt have.

The rest of the trip was also fun, had a hub throw the grease cap off which I discovered at a rest area during my routine vehicle check which involved tire temps, etc... Ok thats odd, so I grabbed the grease gun, pumped it full of grease again, and then threw a new bearing cap on it (yes I had a spare cap and grease gun.) We proceeded to the next rest area which was only 15 miles and upon this inspection the bearings all scattered and the tire was on the verge of falling off. We strapped the axle up and limped it to a tractor supply where we sat for an hour until they opened. They didnt have a long enough axle so we called around. We found a CONVENIENCE STORE/GAS STATION that was 20 miles away and had the exact axle we needed in stock... we only heard about this gas station from some farmers outside the tractor supply because we were chatting while waiting for them to open. How the heck does one find a small mom and pop general/hardware store that sells axles and trailer tires and has a diesel island (which is all dirt/clay, no concrete) and probably some other stuff.

And then a blowout on the same tire that almost fell off, uneventful, had the tire changed in like 10 minutes.

 

[gimpyrobb]

Wow, what a pita! I don't bother bidding outside my area for reasons much like this. Hope things shake out for ya.

 

[Floridianson]

From what I have been reading any single truck over 10,000 or combo over 26,000 could be commercial. That was not you. https://www.dot.state.pa.us/public/PubsForms/Publications/PUB 194.pdf

 

[simp5782]

Pretty much. You can tell him and the trooper to kick rocks. Once you declare yourself private its up to them to prove the burden that you are using it to haul for a profit. The federal dot law protects you on this. I did a bunch of research for someone to fight theirs tickets there and they dont want to.

Remember people are only in jail cause they tell on themselves. You dont have to even talk to an LEO. And They will violate your rights in a heartbeat if you let em.

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

 

[wheelspinner]

Man just based on the first page of the Doc that James posted this guy was waaaaayyyyyy off. I got pulled over by VA DOT for blowing by a scale house. He pulled me over, "No DOT #s, no stop for weigh, etc etc" Showed him my paperwork from the auction that I was transporting my own junk, for my own use in my own personal truck. That was the end of it and away I went. Next scale house must have been warned, they waved at me as I went by, without stopping.

 

[Trailboss]

I know CDL discussions usually aren't allowed here due to each state having it's own varying requirements for its residents, and I don't want to get into what states require CDLs for different private vehicles.

That said, I thought if you are legally licensed in your own state to drive a certain private vehicle/combo, you are legal in other states due to the "Full Faith and Credit" interstate agreements? These agreements cover drivers licenses, vehicle licenses and inspections, and marriage licenses among other things, as long as you are not operating for payment which would require a USDOT number on the vehicle.

I would fight it. I think the ticket writer is confusing the PA vehicle plating regulations, which may require commercial plates for certain weight thresholds, with interstate CDL driver requirements. Otherwise, every private dually truck with a GVWR over 10K lbs passing through PA would require a CDL driver.

Just driving a 5-ton from out-of-state to a parade or rally in located in PA could run into the same issues as yours.

 

[rhurey]

That said, I thought if you are legally licensed in your own state to drive a certain private vehicle/combo, you are legal in other states due to the "Full Faith and Credit" interstate agreements? These agreements cover drivers licenses, vehicle licenses and inspections, and marriage licenses among other things, as long as you are not operating for payment which would require a USDOT number on the vehicle.

Less agreements than each state passing laws to allow drivers from other states to drive without a local license. Yes, laws passed because of agreements, but... Marriage license are the only license that I know of that crosses state lines without the states agreeing to it.

I would fight it. I think the ticket writer is confusing the PA vehicle plating regulations, which may require commercial plates for certain weight thresholds, with interstate CDL driver requirements. Otherwise, every private dually truck with a GVWR over 10K lbs passing through PA would require a CDL driver.

Yeah, this is far into lawyer territory. Nothing you can do about the cop, because qualified immunity. But I'd rather spend money on lawyers than fines and increased insurance premiums. Especially if anything rises to the level of misdemeanor.

PA's definition of Commercial Motor Vehicle is:
Commercial motor vehicle—Any motor vehicle or combination used on a highway in intrastate commerce to transport passengers or property when the vehicle meets one of the following conditions:
Not sure how to apply FL plates and "intrastate commerce" with a straight face.

 

[simp5782]

States have reciprocity agreements. They have to abide by your resident state laws pertaining to your vehicle. Most of them will call it a gray area.

Intrastate commerce applies to never leaving the state your license is in.

interstate means crossing state lines.

You can use a commercial vehicle you own to haul your own personal stuff and not have to fill out a log book or run DOT numbers. The FMSCA allows an exemption. basically it was a buffet and the officers exploited it in this situation. Just like they did another member. That is why we have judges, prosecutors and attorneys to prove what the law is and determine how it fits the crime/infraction. Police officers are not lawyers and they just go by what they believe the law is understood to be by them. Nothing else.

Unfortunately the state of PA has to follow the federal DOT laws on medical card, DOT numbers, and log book as they do not have their own determination as its a national standard. So therefore the FMSCA laws say you are legal.

Hopefully he's lucky and he did not consent to a search and the DOT officer did an inside search of your truck cause once you declared yourself as private he violated your constitutional rights by searching your vehicle without probable cause or a warrant. The fact that you are towing a trailer is not probable cause to search your vehicle on a DOT inspection especially to see that you didn't have a fire extinguisher.

Tell the judge. I said I was private, he still sought fit to detain me without probable cause I had done anything wrong. Accused me of being something I am not. and illegally searched my vehicle without my consent. Judge won't be happy that the officer jumped to conclusions

 

[Demoh]

Unfortunately he didnt search my vehicle without my consent. Everything he did was outside and communicated through me. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on how you look at it) I answered everything truthfully and only answered the questions that I were asked. The problem is I answered all questions and didnt decline to answer any.

Now that it is monday I am searching for a lawyer for this, and there is a lot of good info you guys posted so far. And yea, its more about a failed system than the person enforcing the system.

So uhaul trucks. no cdl due to moving "personal tangible goods" so this should fall under the same thing. had I been driving a 26' uhaul with a GVW of 25999 and a trailer would I have been safe? Whats the difference between moving a dresser I purchased on CL vs a generator I purchased with a papertrail? Seems like a lot of grey area indeed.

 

[simp5782]

Unfortunately he didnt search my vehicle without my consent. Everything he did was outside and communicated through me. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on how you look at it) I answered everything truthfully and only answered the questions that I were asked. The problem is I answered all questions and didnt decline to answer any.

Now that it is monday I am searching for a lawyer for this, and there is a lot of good info you guys posted so far. And yea, its more about a failed system than the person enforcing the system.

So uhaul trucks. no cdl due to moving "personal tangible goods" so this should fall under the same thing. had I been driving a 26' uhaul with a GVW of 25999 and a trailer would I have been safe? Whats the difference between moving a dresser I purchased on CL vs a generator I purchased with a papertrail? Seems like a lot of grey area indeed.

PM me your email address and I can forward you the information pertaining to the tickets they wrote another member.

 

[NDT]

Yikes when did the Feds pass FMCSR 390.5 making gvw between 10,001 and 26,000 CMV territory? This is a F150 with a 3000 gvw trailer!!!

 

[snowtrac nome]

Our state has recognized any vehicle over 10 k as having to follow all cmv guidelines, except for cdl and logbook ,those are reserved for cdl required vehicles only. That said the carpenter taking his tools to work in a 3/4 ton pu with a trailer has to have dot numbers a physical and annual inspection because he is using his vehicle to generate revenue .

 

[dmetalmiki]

Wow..That cop that pulled you seemed to know (An itinerary of) a whole lot of revenue generating possibilities.
Next trip, Tools..spares, sandwiches, milk!..'Sack of money'.

 

[juanprado]

Just my .02

It just plain sucks to see what you have been put through. I do not have specific PA experience but will share general life experiences.

Traffic and Vehicle safety is under the guise of "public Safety" but is generally a revenue enhancement process. The fact that a contracted person issued the citations tell me he has only one master. His boss and the contract. The County probably like the increased fees and court costs so they recommend keeping the contract... There is probably already a cozy relationship and volume this agent/company gives the county and they get accustomed to the cash cow. Sure they might seem impartial but the deck is already stacked against you.

The State trooper was probably there in case you mouthed off, became belligerent, or constituted a public nuisance..... You can figure out the next saga.

You will spend a good amount of $ on attorney and travels/costs/fees/time away.

In like situations I wait till the documents hit the appropriate court jurisdiction and ask to speak to the assistant DA handling traffic cases. I try to make a pretrial conference on phone or in person stating I will pay the full court costs and fines but can they be pleaded down to non moving violations so it does not affect my insurance. The court and Da want the $, so they are still getting that and pleading down does not hurt them. They win and you get a smaller break. Figure which of these citations are the ones that will hit your insurance driving record and become the problem. Typically equipment issues are non moving violations and do not impact insurance unless you have a job that driving is part of the employment. Many states also have clauses that if there are no further citations in a period of times, the charges go off your record. In La, we have article that lets you get the charges removed off your record in 90 days is there are no other violations in the period. You have to ask for it and the DA has to agree to it so never act or sound stupid so they will be willing to work with you. Of course all fees and fines are kept by the jurisdiction. Work out a plea and never go back to PA....

You will end up paying one way or another big bucks, It is just a matter of what is in your best interest.

 

[Special T]

This unfortunate story shows an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. If your not sitting on the side of the road your chances of getting messed with are much lower... Take care of all the window dressing and you are less of a target. I always make sure the easy stuff like lights, mudflaps, tires ect are up to snuff so that I don't stick out... I want to blend in with everyone else.

Not all states have the same levels of freedom and when you cross a state line you should think about it like going to a different country. Shouldn't be this way but it is.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

 

[Lonnie]

Your ticket definitely sucks, but I found this information that I did not know....

Those operating the following vehicles in interstate commerce need to have a DOT medical exam:
Vehicles with a gross vehicle weight (GVW) or gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR), or gross combination weight (GCW) or gross combination weight rating (GCWR) of 10,001 pounds or more; or Vehicles designed to transport more than 15 people, or more than 8 people when there is direct compensation involved; or Vehicles transporting hazardous materials that require the vehicle to be placarded.The criterion in this definition that causes confusion is the vehicle weight. The general weight criterion for which a CDL is needed is 26,001 pounds. The weight criterion for which a physical is needed is 10,001 pounds. So, interstate drivers of vehicles between 10,001 and 26,001 pounds (not hauling hazmat) need to have a medical exam but do not need to have a CDL. (The other DQ requirements apply as well.)For intrastate drivers, it depends on what the state has adopted for the weight criterion. A number of states use the same 10,001-pound criterion as is found in the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulations. Other states have increased the weight limit to anywhere from 12,000 pounds up to 26,001 pounds (which does coincide with the CDL requirements). A few states also have grandfather clauses or other exemptions that may except certain individuals from the medical requirement.

This means any pickup truck with a moderate sized trailer puts you in this requirement. My 2500HD is 9200GVW & pulling a small 1200GVW trailer with my quad on over the state line means I'm in violation also (with a trailer that doesn't even require brakes). Learn something every day... even if you wish you hadn't.

You still don't need a CDL or log book from what I have found so far.

 

[98G]

" in interstate commerce..."

Unless you're for profit, none of it applies.

 

[snowtrac nome]

Your ticket definitely sucks, but I found this information that I did not know....

Those operating the following vehicles in interstate commerce need to have a DOT medical exam:
Vehicles with a gross vehicle weight (GVW) or gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR), or gross combination weight (GCW) or gross combination weight rating (GCWR) of 10,001 pounds or more; or Vehicles designed to transport more than 15 people, or more than 8 people when there is direct compensation involved; or Vehicles transporting hazardous materials that require the vehicle to be placarded.The criterion in this definition that causes confusion is the vehicle weight. The general weight criterion for which a CDL is needed is 26,001 pounds. The weight criterion for which a physical is needed is 10,001 pounds. So, interstate drivers of vehicles between 10,001 and 26,001 pounds (not hauling hazmat) need to have a medical exam but do not need to have a CDL. (The other DQ requirements apply as well.)For intrastate drivers, it depends on what the state has adopted for the weight criterion. A number of states use the same 10,001-pound criterion as is found in the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulations. Other states have increased the weight limit to anywhere from 12,000 pounds up to 26,001 pounds (which does coincide with the CDL requirements). A few states also have grandfather clauses or other exemptions that may except certain individuals from the medical requirement.

This means any pickup truck with a moderate sized trailer puts you in this requirement. My 2500HD is 9200GVW & pulling a small 1200GVW trailer with my quad on over the state line means I'm in violation also (with a trailer that doesn't even require brakes). Learn something every day... even if you wish you hadn't.

You still don't need a CDL or log book from what I have found so far.

That is correct if you pull that trailer for revenue or you have a company name on the door, but private use is exempted. even on my lmtv I'm subject to CMV regulations when going to or from a job site but if I make a grocery run to the store for my family I am exempt. If I use it to haul tools to work at my day time job I again fall under dot enforcement. the way they choose to enforce the laws can be confusing and a real headache for those that are un informed.

 

[Lonnie]

Now I feel a little better... hopefully the police recognize these 2 words next time I'm out of state.

 

[NDT]

" in interstate commerce..."

Unless you're for profit, none of it applies.

Except in the OP's case, the renta-LEO didn't care and left that determination for the courts.