Resurrecting a waterlogged mep-803A

[Demoh]

Had a friend purchase a gen up in PA and decided because a trip from FL for 1 gen would be pricey why not buy 2? Well I decided to pick up a cheap non-runner.

Ended up getting a unit that came back from Kuwait (seems like a pattern, I got a MMG25 from Kuwait a few years back) with 6000 hours on it. Pictures didnt show that the exhaust cover was missing. I knew it would be a lot of work for this unit and I figured the engine would be full of water. It is missing a few parts but as a unit to screw around with and as a secondary unit for my house should my 5 not cut it, Im not too worried.

Pulled the drain, even though dry, it had evidence of milkshake / water. Attempted to bar over the engine, the engine was excessivly hard to turn with a very high breakaway point. Basically the unit was seized where the starter wouldnt have been able to do anything to it but a breaker bar would. Ended up loosening the nut on the harmonic balancer as a result. Hit a dead stop. Tried other direction, dead stop again.

Pulled the lid, then exhaust and intake, definitely water in the rear 2 cylinders. An attempts to push the valves down to let the water evacuate failed. Pulled the injectors, barred the unit over and still hit the same dead stops. The unit wouldnt get to TDC for #4 rotating in 1 direction and #3 in the other. Looks like the rust/carbon/whatever has become enough to stop the rotation of this engine.

Filled the cylinders with seafoam and let them soak for an hour. Tried barring them over again and I was now able to rotate freely. Hooked batteries up and proceeded to spray a white car with black liquid. (I wish, I covered the unit with a towel which it blew off and still made a mess, but I had my friend move his car). Went ahead and filled the crankcase with oil after trying to flush a bunch out unsuccessfully. Cheapest oil I had was a 5w30 syn blend (my friend doesnt carry plain conventional at his shop because bulk oil is so cheap) so I went ahead and filled the crankcase, threw some seafoam in there as well.

Since the electronics on this unit are non-responsive I put a mechanical gauge on and began to deadcrank to get the cylinders properly evacuated and check oil pressure. 35 psi while cranking. Not bad.

Tomorrow Im going to see if I can get it to fire up... Im hoping I dont have to pull the head or rebuild the engine. I know its not ideal to run with all that rust on the walls and valves and head, but unless I get some compelling evidence / guidance to do so I really dont want to go that far.

So, if I pull the head could I reuse the headgasket or do those get destroyed when pulled apart? What is the consensus on this type of repair for what the next course of action is based on what has already been done? What do people use for gasket material for these units if one of the exhaust ports' gaskets is blown out? I took my IR camera to a running at 100% 802A and saw temps close to 600 so I can only assume the actual exhaust gas temp is like 800, and ultra copper RTV is rated at 700. Also, is the gasket on the side of the engine reusable? Basically im trying to open everything up that has reusable gaskets but not anything where im going to need to order a gasket.

So if I do get this thing to fire up without pulling the head, what re-break-in process should be followed? Should this be a fast and hot or a gradual bringing up the load? I figure I would get some things sloshed around and evaluate the oil, if it looks off in any way, change it. then bring it up to operating temp then check again, change it, then maybe check again at 1 hr. During this process should there be an additive in the oil because the rings may potentially be frozen? Pint of seafoam in each or some other magic in a can?

 

[NDT]

Good luck with it, the engine may come back to life. I bought a M880 truck (318 engine) long ago that was full of water, it fired up and I drove it for years.

 

[jamawieb]

If you got it to rotate with just seafoam you should be fine without removing the head. If you have to pull the head, leave the exhaust and intake manifold in place and pull it all at once. All gaskets will be destroyed when you pull the head or the side cove.

 

[Buickrat]

Wow, cool that it's not seized. If I came free that easy, you may get lucky. I've seen worse. It will probably smoke for a while till the rings free up.

Let us know how it goes. A video!

 

[Demoh]

Small update: After messing with it for better part of the day, no luck on firing. I can get black smoke our of 2 cylinders, maybe 3 and it keeps blowing crud out so I feel I have a long way to go.

To get this unit to run without using the electronics all I need is the fuel pump and holding the solenoid that is connected to the fuel rack back and using dead crank to fire the starter correct? Basically I zip tied the solenoid closed so that should take care of getting the injectors to fire right? (with a pair of angle cutters real close for when I need to quickly stop the unit, along with proper diesel runaway supplies)

With the injector lines cracked I cracked until I had diesel out of all 4. Closed lines. With both manifolds still off I would get black smoke out of 1 cylinder. Good sign there I guess, black (burnt) smoke is better than white (unburnt) smoke right? Conditions didnt improve from many attempts while keeping the starter cool.

Tried some other items, pouring the equiv of a soda cap full of diesel down each intake, that would produce more smoke. The more I did that the more crud would come out of the exhaust ports. Any diesel that would come out the exhaust ports was as black as the motor oil from my 7.3. I suspect this unit was badly wet stacked before being sent back from Kuwait. I would get small puffs of vapor from the intake ports but nothing like the exhaust, but not sure if that is a concern. I started reinstalling the intake back on pretty early on in my testing to keep some momentum for the airflow. Due to no glowplugs I started feeding air into the intake with a 1500watt heat gun, seemed to help a little bit. Starting fluid produces effects, not necessarily good.

So is my procedure good or does this unit need the exhaust system and intake system or also something other than the fuel rack solenoid to run?

I suspect my problem is with the valves not seating. I dont think I have valve collision as the unit moves over smooth now. And when I add diesel to the intake it smokes like a tuned diesel (always black so thats telling me its burning it,) but any time it fires its like it adds no power and RPM doesnt get a slight jump like when you are getting 1 cylinder on a 6bt to fire in the cold. Even with starting fluid it doesnt feel like its firing so I think its got to be compression. (I dont think rings as yesterday I had no seepage with any seafoam soaking in the cylinders show up in the crankcase.) Also when I had the injectors out and used an air gun to blow crap out I stuck the tip into the nozzle hole it would mist out of the intake/exhaust slightly. Is this normal or does this sound like theres still crud in there that is preventing the valves to seating? Most pushrods cannot be turned by hand even when the unit hasnt been cranked in an hour. I only bring this up because of TM-9-2815-253-24 paragraph 3-26.3 installation of pushrods. Does F imply that all pushrods should rotate? Is D the only way of adjusting the pushrods via tightening that nut to a torque spec?

Any new thoughts or procedures I should be following? And here are some pictures of the unit.

 

[Kenny0]

A trick I have used several times is oxygen from a torch. Use the cutting tip and leave the gas valve closed, turn on the one oxy valve so you have oxy when you press the valve. Put intake manifold back on, while turning engine over press the oxy valve directly in the intake manifold. Keep all body parts away from the intake opening in case it back flashes. Be ready with the run away engine procedure which is possible with all the diesel in the cylinders. Just make sure to keep any body parts from the intake manifold !!!

edit - Might want to let sit overnight so a lot of the excess seeps past the rings out of the cylinders

edit - Also, if you get it running you will need to put a load on it to help loosen the rings up

edit - Would not worry too much about valve adjustment yet. Check after it has been running for several hours. Some push rods will turn and others will not depending on the position of the crankshaft. Any piston that is TDC on compression stroke means that both push rods on that cylinder will turn by hand.

 

[Daybreak]

Howdy,

The gaskets which you need are actually the easiest to find and get.

auction site has a 5 pack of the exhaust manifold gaskets, and the valve cover gaskets are easy too. The exhaust muffler one it kinda tough. There was a few on the auction site too.

 

[Demoh]

Howdy,

The gaskets which you need are actually the easiest to find and get.

auction site has a 5 pack of the exhaust manifold gaskets, and the valve cover gaskets are easy too. The exhaust muffler one it kinda tough. There was a few on the auction site too.

Yep found those, but I dont understand why its not a 2 or 4 pack. lemme get one of those 5 cylinder models, 12.5kw lol

A trick I have used several times is oxygen from a torch. Use the cutting tip and leave the gas valve closed, turn on the one oxy valve so you have oxy when you press the valve. Put intake manifold back on, while turning engine over press the oxy valve directly in the intake manifold. Keep all body parts away from the intake opening in case it back flashes. Be ready with the run away engine procedure which is possible with all the diesel in the cylinders. Just make sure to keep any body parts from the intake manifold !!!

edit - Might want to let sit overnight so a lot of the excess seeps past the rings out of the cylinders

edit - Also, if you get it running you will need to put a load on it to help loosen the rings up

edit - Would not worry too much about valve adjustment yet. Check after it has been running for several hours. Some push rods will turn and others will not depending on the position of the crankshaft. Any piston that is TDC on compression stroke means that both push rods on that cylinder will turn by hand.

Oxygen, hmm, I never thought about that. That does make sense because it seems that whenever I did starting fluid it would have better effects after id stop and it would get some air in there.

Really I cant believe I didnt try it.... fuel, air, compression. well I know I am getting fuel, I am doubting the compression, but I never thought about checking air.

Might take me a few days to get back to the unit since I am storing it at my friend's shop.

 

[Guyfang]

Yep found those, but I dont understand why its not a 2 or 4 pack. lemme get one of those 5 cylinder models, 12.5kw lol




Oxygen, hmm, I never thought about that. That does make sense because it seems that whenever I did starting fluid it would have better effects after id stop and it would get some air in there.

Really I cant believe I didnt try it.... fuel, air, compression. well I know I am getting fuel, I am doubting the compression, but I never thought about checking air.

When in doubt, all ways go back to basics. I think compression is your problem. Cant be air. Could still be fuel. Pull the injectors, and re hook them up to the fuel lines, but OUTSIDE their holders. Crank over the engine. SEE if anything is comming out of the injectors. TRUST nothing, VERIFY everything. Be careful with the Oxy. This is afterall, just metal. You on the other hand, are not.
Might take me a few days to get back to the unit since I am storing it at my friend's shop.

a

 

[dangier]

You mentioned starting fluid. That is a big no-no on these smaller units. I just got a 002 repaired and started after what appears starting fluid was used on it. Piston ring lands on #1 and #2 rings destroyed. Was lucky enough to find two serviceable used pistons.
Good luck on your efforts.
David

 

[Demoh]

When in doubt, all ways go back to basics. I think compression is your problem. Cant be air. Could still be fuel. Pull the injectors, and re hook them up to the fuel lines, but OUTSIDE their holders. Crank over the engine. SEE if anything is comming out of the injectors. TRUST nothing, VERIFY everything. Be careful with the Oxy. This is afterall, just metal. You on the other hand, are not.

What are the safe limits of flexability on these hard lines? I have 3 of the lines where the nut is seized to the tube so I only get a few degrees or rotation before it starts twisting the tube.

Still trying to think up a way to be able to un-jam that nut. I could do the test with 1 of the injection pumps because that one line is free and I could turn it around, but that would test 4 injectors and 1 pump instead of testing 4 injectors and 4 pumps.

I havent been able to source hardlines, but I also havent been searching for part numbers....

 

[Guyfang]

This happened to me several times. Twice I simply kept turning, and the nuts broke free. At least 3 times, I needed new lines. The lines are relatively tough. I would tap the crap out of them with a small brass hammer, and spray some rust eater on them first. The ones I broke, I did not spray or tap. Once I started doing that, I got them off. Won't say without problems, but I could use them again.

There are a number of people in the forum who have unserviceable engines. I would get some used tubes if they were destroyed. At the end of the day, they need to come off. One way or the other.

If the engine won't start, the pumps and injectors are probably a part of the problem. I have seen some of these sets with the dipsticks blew out, shot oil all over the place, because the rings were shot. And they still started.

 

[Bmxenbrett]

Your talking about the hard injector lines? You can put a little heat on them. I havr done this for really stuck hydraulic hoses. Heat slightly (not red) tap with hammer and work the threads. You can also melt candle wax on the fitting just when it starts to get hot. Hold the candle there until its cool enough not to melt the wax, then work it.

 

[Guyfang]

Heat is good too. Just don't over do it.

 

[1800 Diesel]

You mentioned starting fluid. That is a big no-no on these smaller units. I just got a 002 repaired and started after what appears starting fluid was used on it. Piston ring lands on #1 and #2 rings destroyed. Was lucky enough to find two serviceable used pistons.
Good luck on your efforts. David

Agree--never use ether! When I need a little "boost" when trying to start a diesel I use WD-40 or the WM Super Tech spray lube (much cheaper). It has a lower flash point than diesel and it also provides lubricity to the cylinders...

 

[Demoh]

Agree--never use ether! When I need a little "boost" when trying to start a diesel I use WD-40 or the WM Super Tech spray lube (much cheaper). It has a lower flash point than diesel and it also provides lubricity to the cylinders...

Well I agree but there is a difference between ether and "starting fluid" which is more hexane or some other petroleum product... Of course actual ether for starting is expensive (the cans that come in the MMG25 generators and heavy duty trucks and equipment)

Still going to be a bit, but I am going to try fabricating a line holding tool out of vicegrips to assist with easier removal since I see a lot more of this in my future as I may have a generator addiction now. Similar to a pipe rerounder but for the smaller pipes. purpose 1 is to hold it from spinning, purpose 2 is to hold it to tap on it to try to knock it loose from the nut. And if we want purpose 3 is to let it be a heatsink so the nut gets hotter than the pipe for thermal expansion. Purpose 4 is to hold my sunglasses

 

[1800 Diesel]

Well I agree but there is a difference between ether and "starting fluid" which is more hexane or some other petroleum product... Of course actual ether for starting is expensive (the cans that come in the MMG25 generators and heavy duty trucks and equipment)

Still going to be a bit, but I am going to try fabricating a line holding tool out of vicegrips to assist with easier removal since I see a lot more of this in my future as I may have a generator addiction now. Similar to a pipe rerounder but for the smaller pipes. purpose 1 is to hold it from spinning, purpose 2 is to hold it to tap on it to try to knock it loose from the nut. And if we want purpose 3 is to let it be a heatsink so the nut gets hotter than the pipe for thermal expansion. Purpose 4 is to hold my sunglasses

Commercially available starting fluid will still destroy a perfectly good engine. I've used it a few times when up in the snow country but very sparingly and always sprayed the WD-40 or equal first and then followed with just a shot of the starting fluid.

On the fuel line nut, carefully put some heat on it (candle, heat gun, torch) and then spray some PB Blaster on the tubing where it goes into the nut. Once it gets in between the nut & the tubing you should see some results. Be wary of too much heat and don't start a fire!

 

[eatont9999]

On the truck forums, people suggest soaking a rag in gasoline and placing it in or around the intake. I have never done it but if I were to, I would rather spray it in with a spray bottle.

 

[Kenny0]

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Yes, you do have to be careful with the oxy. Leaky intake valve because of a piece of carbon, sticky valve or other reason it will back flash. That is like the exhaust on a jet engine for probably less than a second, but long enough to burn flesh. That's why I put that caution in my post twice. You're right about it has nothing to do with the volume of air getting into the engine, but it increases the oxy in the air to allow it to start where it normally wouldn't because of bad fuel, low compression, sticky rings, even cold weather or other reasons. Can save a lot of wear and tear on the starter. Could this result in a out of control rpm if the cylinders were overly saturated with diesel fuel, maybe but I have never run into that situation.

 

[Hard Head]

Any time I get a frozen engine, I tear it down and rebuild it. That way there will be no surprises when you crank her up! I can rest easy knowing I have a reliable unit. An 803 for standby will last for decades for home use as long as you keep the rain and bugs out of it and maintain the batteries. Just saying.