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M151 rollover analysis? Looking for info

Irv

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Yo.
I know the general rumor/fact that the M151 had a rollover problem that was addressed in the A1 and A2, but I'm looking for some info on just what kind of driving is likely to cause this. So far, I've heard that the suspension folds underneath if you launch off of a jump, and high speed turns cause the outside wheels to fold under, or something like that.
The military must have done an analysis of the causes, cures, and cautions. Anyone know where I can find that info? Thanks.
 

MarineTracs

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I don't know where you can find any 'official' info on the 151 roll over problem. The government kept their head in the sand for a long time by always blaming 'driver error'. Not to say that was not the case in a lot of mishaps. For years they kept 'driver education' as their only remedy.
Then came the A1 and A2 mods. The A2 was supposed to greatly improve the situation, and did to some degree. Unfortunately, the problem of a high center of gravity and too narrow a wheel base remained. Personally, I think the ROPS was a mixed blessing. It provided protection when you rolled the vehicle, but added to the high center of gravity problem. Also it gave the drivers a false sense of security. Even with the A1 and A2 mods, the rollover problem remained.
The only advice I can give is--never, never take a 90 degreee turn at anything over20-25 mph (yes, even in a M151A2). And, always remember that you a not driving your car, so don't apply that driving technique to your MUTT.
By the way, I never saw a ROPS system on any MUTT's while I was in the Corps (but I got out in Jan 1975). I heard that it was pretty much a National Guard thing, but I can't say that for sure.
 

Irv

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I wouldn't do a 90 degree turn in a car, let alone a 151, so that's not a problem. I suspect part of the issue was the young, invincible(?) drivers. Appreciate your help.
 

vtdeucedriver

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Vermont
I am new to driving the mutt. It really rides and drives like no other. The most simple rule to remember is the same of any older military vehicle. "THINK AHEAD". I drove my deuces that way and my 5 tons. It is no different with the mutt. If you need to avoid an obstacle quick and you need to cut it and go around it, you are going to be in a deadly situation. Easy definition to what its like. Ever done a high speed turn in a 1972 Chevelle???? well instead of the front end rolling like a boat, its the rear of the vehicle!!!
 

poppop

Well-known member
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Brooklet, Ga
I have been told not to install a ROPS structure on a 151 or 151A1 as it makes them top heavy and they roll quicker. I have driven my Mutt for 5 years and never even come close to a bad situation. Be carefull in sand and don't make hard high speed turns and there is no problem.
 

Bill W

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Brooks,Ga
As I've been told
On the original 151 if the rear wheels left the ground ( ie hard turn or jump ) the coil spring ( one or both) would pop out of the lower a frame ( control arm ) causing the vehicle to flip, the fix was to weld a stop chain from the uni-body to the a frame to keep the lower control arm from extending down far enough to let the coil spring pop out in the event of the wheels leaving the ground. Simple fix but it ( 151) had aready gotten bad press so it was doomed
 

nattieleather

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Cleveland, OH
Don't swerve! If you want to make a lane change glide over don't jerk it over. If a dog runs out in front of you run the dog over don't try to swerve to miss it. And never a left or right turn at speeds over 20 MPH. That even includes clover leaf on and off ramps. I try to straighten them out when ever I can.
 

Recovry4x4

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Anyone in fear of rolling their MUTT, especially an -A2, please call me! I will respond in a lightning quick fashion to take the problem off your hands. I will provide this speedy service free of charge.
 

Floyd

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San Gabriel Mountains, CA
Demil Order: :arrow:

In 1971, the Department of the Army requested comments and recommendations from the U.S. DOT about its plans to sell M151's to the public. The Army hoped to dispose of 73,000 vehicles in sales to the public over a six to ten year period which represented approximately $54 million in returns to the Army if the vehicles were sold. The M151 was well known for its high rollover propensity. On average, about 30 percent of accidents involving the M151 were rollovers. The Army proposed selling the vehicles with a warning label that read as follows:
"CAUTION-----This vehicle is designed primarily for operation over rough terrain. The design features, short wheel base and high center of gravity, establishes limitations in handling characteristics of the vehicles. Drivers are cautioned that there is little warning by body tilt or feel when turning corners too sharp for the speed of the vehicle. This could contribute to vehicle rollover."

NHTSA responded to the Department of the Army in a letter, September 21, 1971 as follows:

Dear Colonel Bagg:

This is in reply to your letter of May 19, 1971, requesting our comments and recommendations concerning the sale of M151 Jeep vehicles to the public. You indicate that there are presently 6,000 of these vehicles in the supply system awaiting disposal. You further indicate that if the vehicles are released the Army will, as a precautionary measure, place decals on them that describe the handling limitations and incorporate certain exculpatory clauses in the invitations for bids and in a certificate to be issued to a donee when a vehicle is donated. Since receipt of your letter, representatives of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration have met with representatives of the Department of the Army and the Defense Supply Agency, on June 11, 1971, and again on July 23, 1971, do discuss this matter.

Based upon the information we have received, we recommend against the sale of these vehicles to the public, even with the decals containing the warning you describe affixed to them, or with the proposed disclaimers contained in the invitations for bids and the certificates furnished to donees. We do not believe that the handling problem, a propensity to roll over without warning to the user that rollover may be imminent, can be adequately guarded against through the use of warnings. This is reflected in the Army's own policy, which we understand allows only persons who have received a specialized training course to operate these vehicles. Of course, a training program for the public is impracticable. Even if a warning of a decal or in a certificate could suffice, such a decal could be removed or destroyed, and the certificate lost, and the pruchaser or subsequent purchasers would not receive notice of the potential hazard.

As part of our recommendation, we suggest that disposal of these vehicles be accomplished in a manner that prevents subsequent reassembly of the vehicle, such as cutting, or similarly destroying the suspension and frame. The recommendation includes all types of these vehicles (i.e. M151, M151A1, M151A2, M718, and M825).

Thank you for the opportunity to comment on this matter.

Sincerely, Douglas W. Toms, Administrator"

Floyd
 

Capt.Marion

Active member
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Location
Atlanta, GA
Recovry4x4 said:
Anyone in fear of rolling their MUTT, especially an -A2, please call me! I will respond in a lightning quick fashion to take the problem off your hands. I will provide this speedy service free of charge.
I offer this (semi) exclusive service as well, for those wishing to not travel too far south!
 

Irv

New member
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Location
Noxon, MT
Thanks for the info, guys! It sounds like it's fine if you stay under 35 and plan your accidents ahead of time. The comment about running down the dog is appropriate, if not sad. Running it on the freeway is possible but doesn't sound safe, since I have yet to be able to plan my accidents ahead of time. If I were alone on the road it sounds safe. If some nut pulls out in front of me, I would not be able to swerve. Sounds like the freeway is out. Under 35, I probably have time to slow down and then turn, or at least more likely to be able to in time. The chains inside the suspension springs sounds like a really good idea, too. Appreciate the input.
 

Jones

Well-known member
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Location
Sacramento, California
We had some of the early 151s and we found that a driver could round a corner with no problems; circle the block and round the same corner at the same speed and conditions and end up on his head. The outside axle would tuck under because of failure of the flimsy 'axle travel stops' and pole vault you into oncoming traffic-- or out into a field.
The problem wasn't so much that they did it; but that when they did it, it was always with little or no warning.
I don't know if anyone ever figured out exactly what conditions needed to be in place for them to flip everytime so there wasn't a point-of-no-return established. i.e. 20 mph on new high tread tires with lots of tractive adhesion and you're in trouble; 30 mph on worn tires and you might spin out but not flip... ya just never knew.
At one point Mare Island had warehouses full of them; brand new, unissued, knocked down for shipping-- and all were red-tagged with the non-repairable item classification.
 

nattieleather

Well-known member
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Location
Cleveland, OH
Irv said:
Thanks for the info, guys! It sounds like it's fine if you stay under 35 and plan your accidents ahead of time. The comment about running down the dog is appropriate, if not sad. Running it on the freeway is possible but doesn't sound safe, since I have yet to be able to plan my accidents ahead of time. If I were alone on the road it sounds safe. If some nut pulls out in front of me, I would not be able to swerve. Sounds like the freeway is out. Under 35, I probably have time to slow down and then turn, or at least more likely to be able to in time. The chains inside the suspension springs sounds like a really good idea, too. Appreciate the input.
I have driven my 151 on the highway many times. I keep it at around 50-55 and I stay in the slow lane and generally everyone passes me and I have no problems. I even drove it in rush hour traffic in detroit once coming back from upper MI to OH. You just need defensive driving that's all. Remember sharp turns under 20 mph. The big thing is just don't be a lunitic and you'll be fine.
 

Capt.Marion

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Atlanta, GA
I went 25 miles up an interstate highway into all but the mountains, 65 the whole way, 45-55 once we got off. Not a single problem. Oh, in a 67 151A1, carrying 2 ppl, and about 100+lbs of gear. Handled and rode incredibly well.
 

czechnology

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Czech
Irv said:
I'd like to download that file, but it's some kind of .rar files. How do I do that? Thanks.
Okay, the pdf file is too large to post it on a forum, so it has been splitted to two parts.

Download this software called winrar: http://www.rarlab.com/download.htm (free)

Install it, then download the two files from the forum, save them in a same place or folder and right click on the first file and select "unrar" command. The pdf file will then be extracted to it´s original shape and size. Hope it helps.
 
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