M35A3C winch trouble shooting

[stanzuray]

Trying to turn a nice (5000+ miles) M35A3C with winch into a dependable search and rescue vehicle for our winter ice road into the village.
Working on the winch now which I was told did work but does not now. Downloaded some TM's and got two more coming from eBay but could use someone to help me trouble shoot it. Hydraulic fluid looks good. Levers lock drum forward and reverse. Follow the operating sequence and get no sounds or movements. Any things to look for and check out would be appreciated. Was last run by people who should not have been using the winch is probably the issue. What could they have broken. Thanks Stan

 

[ToddJK]

I know some about winches, but mostly the electrical versions. Not sure what the M35A3 has, what is the power source of the winch? Hydraulic, electric, pto?

If the drum can move then we know it's not seized. I know on some trucks, the levers and linkages from inside the cab going underneath can come out of adjustment or be dirty enough to not move all the way, thus not engaging the winch. I'd double check all the connections first if you haven't already, probably have a helper to make things easier.

 

[tobyS]

The power source is a hydraulic pump that is piggybacked onto the air compressor. Myself...I don't like that setup. I don't like the stress that puts on the crank and gear of the air compressor.

My solution is a PTO on the Allison. And to fit in the space available, a direct mounted pump. That setup is rated to 45 hp and could operate other things than the winch.

 

[INFChief]

 

[INFChief]

View attachment 845834

I pulled this out of the operator’s TM. The description gives a couple of clues about what could be faulty. Do you have a unit level maintenance manual?

 

[tobyS]

I pulled this out of the operator’s TM. The description gives a couple of clues about what could be faulty. Do you have a unit level maintenance manual?

Air operated hydraulic valve....more proof the A3 was designed by committee. I don't have a hyd front winch, so have some bias.

 

[gringeltaube]

What could they have broken....

If the valves are found to be OK and the motor turns, check that shear pin (#7)...

(I know you said no sounds, but anything is possible...)

 

[INFChief]

Here is another page from a TM. Good hints here about “rust” & crud, etc.

 

[ToddJK]

When you try to engage the winch, since it's off the air compressor, the hydraulic pump should turn on, but I imagine if the pump isn't coming on, I'd start with the TM trouble shooting why the pump isn't coming on. I'm not sure if it's just a lever that allows air to activate the pump or if there is an electrical motor on the pump that uses the air to activate the pump. I wish I had an M35A3 w/w to look at so I'd have a better idea.
I know with electrical winches, if you don't use it every so often, even if it's just to unwind and rewind the cable back in, 5-10 mins of use per week/2 weeks, to create heat and dissipate moisture inside, moisture builds up in the motor and then it can short it out or cause rust and seize. If yours uses the air compressor, makes me wonder if moisture from within the system didn't get into the pump or there abouts and rust inside somewhere.

 

[Mullaney]

Trying to turn a nice (5000+ miles) M35A3C with winch into a dependable search and rescue vehicle for our winter ice road into the village.
Working on the winch now which I was told did work but does not now. Downloaded some TM's and got two more coming from eBay but could use someone to help me trouble shoot it. Hydraulic fluid looks good. Levers lock drum forward and reverse. Follow the operating sequence and get no sounds or movements. Any things to look for and check out would be appreciated. Was last run by people who should not have been using the winch is probably the issue. What could they have broken. Thanks Stan

.
Are you hearing the "whir" sound of the pump when you turn on the hydraulics?
You should hear a pitch change in the engine when you pull the winch lever too.

 

[tobyS]

Are you building air pressure? Without it, the air engaging PTO on the back of the air compressor will not engage the pump. Or is the PTO manual?

Edit.....is this pump engaging while the engine is running....turning? Engaging a PTO on Allison requires stopping while in gear. How does this engage if the truck is running? Is there a safety switch?

 

[HDN]

Trying to turn a nice (5000+ miles) M35A3C with winch into a dependable search and rescue vehicle for our winter ice road into the village.
Working on the winch now which I was told did work but does not now. Downloaded some TM's and got two more coming from eBay but could use someone to help me trouble shoot it. Hydraulic fluid looks good. Levers lock drum forward and reverse. Follow the operating sequence and get no sounds or movements. Any things to look for and check out would be appreciated. Was last run by people who should not have been using the winch is probably the issue. What could they have broken. Thanks Stan

An M35A3C with winch? That's a nice score! I wish mine had at least drop sides

You want TM9-2320-386-24-1, which is two volumes. Those books have the attached troubleshooting procedures as well as instructions for working on the winch. You can download the PDF versions either here or at www.jatonkam35s.com. The PDFs are nice because you can Ctrl+F and type in search terms.

Hope this helps!

 

[tobyS]

I know this is not winch talk but when you mention dependability, I question the use of an A3. The oddball transmission makes service on the 1545 an issue. The 1/1 trans final ratio makes them the slowest vehicle on the road. Hydraulics off the back of an air compressor....really. It takes little effort to put the fan into the radiator and half of them made from old frames are rusted under the rear trunion mounts. Man, I hope they didn't use old springs on the front like mine. Just a suggestion.....use a modern 5 ton.

 

[HDN]

I know this is not winch talk but when you mention dependability, I question the use of an A3. The oddball transmission makes service on the 1545 an issue. The 1/1 trans final ratio makes them the slowest vehicle on the road. Hydraulics off the back of an air compressor....really. It takes little effort to put the fan into the radiator and half of them made from old frames are rusted under the rear trunion mounts. Man, I hope they didn't use old springs on the front like mine. Just a suggestion.....use a modern 5 ton.

It blows my mind that they'd put a hydraulic pump on the air compressor instead of using a PTO off the transmission, which has a blank covering gears for one. The AT1545 can be replaced with an AT545 that's very common, and there's instructions in the maintenance TMs for making the swap. You'll just lose the ability to lock the torque converter in 3rd and 4th gear which probably won't be an issue for how the truck is going to be used.

They put old springs on your truck? I guess they were good enough The back lower corners of my cab are crushed, but I have no idea if that happened as an A3 or came like that from one of the A2 donors.

I second the suggestion of a 5-ton, but I bet the price is probably right for this M35A3, and maybe weight is an issue? I bet it would be easier to get an M35A3 un-stuck than an M923A2. I don't think M35A3s are as tough as the M35A2s between the weight limits on the bolt-together rims and the selected automatic transmission. They were even de-rated from the M35A2 to carrying no more than 2.5 tons of cargo and towing no more than 3 tons, regardless of driving surface. I treat mine more like a bigger HMMWV The M35A3 was built to supplement the deployment of the 2.5-ton LMTV after all.

Also, I hope CTIS isn't the reason for buying an M35A3. The truck's CTIS isn't designed to work below certain temperatures.

 

[Mullaney]

It blows my mind that they'd put a hydraulic pump on the air compressor instead of using a PTO off the transmission, which has a blank covering gears for one. The AT1545 can be replaced with an AT545 that's very common, and there's instructions in the maintenance TMs for making the swap. You'll just lose the ability to lock the torque converter in 3rd and 4th gear which probably won't be an issue for how the truck is going to be used.

They put old springs on your truck? I guess they were good enough The back lower corners of my cab are crushed, but I have no idea if that happened as an A3 or came like that from one of the A2 donors.

I second the suggestion of a 5-ton, but I bet the price is probably right for this M35A3, and maybe weight is an issue? I bet it would be easier to get an M35A3 un-stuck than an M923A2. I don't think M35A3s are as tough as the M35A2s between the weight limits on the bolt-together rims and the selected automatic transmission. They were even de-rated from the M35A2 to carrying no more than 2.5 tons of cargo and towing no more than 3 tons, regardless of driving surface. I treat mine more like a bigger HMMWV The M35A3 was built to supplement the deployment of the 2.5-ton LMTV after all.

Also, I hope CTIS isn't the reason for buying an M35A3. The truck's CTIS isn't designed to work below certain temperatures.

.
I do believe there must have been a naming convention mishap with CTIS.
CTIS stands more properly as the Cantankerous Tire Inflation System

For about $30 you can drain all six tires to a set low poundage for driving on sand or playing in the mud. Granted, when you get back to the paved road it will take a while to air the tires back up to their proper pressure. It will cause you to stand there or squat beside the tire and hold an air chuck on the schrader valve. You would be airing up with a gladhand connection on the same air compressor that drives CTIS - but one tire at the time compared to all six.

One of my trucks works perfectly. The other one, maybe 50% of the time.

 

[HDN]

It will cause you to stand there or squat beside the tire and hold an air chuck on the schrader valve. You would be airing up with a gladhand connection on the same air compressor that drives CTIS - but one tire at the time compared to all six.

I solved that problem by getting a longer hose to go between the lock-on air chuck and the handheld inflator with built-in gauge. Now I can sit or stand comfortably anywhere within 25 feet of the wheel

If the M35A3C is a done deal, the manual way to inflate and deflate the tires will probably be the best way for the environment. Having a working CTIS requires maintenance to keep the air leaks away and to keep the wheel valves and air manifold functional. And spare tires in case there's a system failure somewhere and you have a flat. But if someone's going to be able to do that then why not keep it?

 

[ToddJK]

I've always been a bigger fan of the A2's. The latest fuel crisis/shortage was just a friendly reminder!

 

[stanzuray]

As usual Steel Soldiers members are a wealth of knowledge and got a bunch of ideas and TM's to help troubleshoot the winch. I'll definitely update this post on the end results. I got access to a number of 5 tons and 2 - 2 1/2 tons (owned by the City of Tanana). Was using a 5 ton for a winter and had it all fixed up nice and ran great when I parked it last and it got used to haul trash and brush the summer before last by multiple drivers and it has never run since - will not fire even with start fluid and strong batteries. This 2 1/2 ton basically be used to drive out in cold temps over a blown in frontier road and pull out pickup trucks that get stuck or break down. It's pretty dangerous on this road under those conditions especially is they loose the engine and got no heat.

 

[HDN]

As usual Steel Soldiers members are a wealth of knowledge and got a bunch of ideas and TM's to help troubleshoot the winch. I'll definitely update this post on the end results. I got access to a number of 5 tons and 2 - 2 1/2 tons (owned by the City of Tanana). Was using a 5 ton for a winter and had it all fixed up nice and ran great when I parked it last and it got used to haul trash and brush the summer before last by multiple drivers and it has never run since - will not fire even with start fluid and strong batteries. This 2 1/2 ton basically be used to drive out in cold temps over a blown in frontier road and pull out pickup trucks that get stuck or break down. It's pretty dangerous on this road under those conditions especially is they loose the engine and got no heat.

If you're using it to pull out other's pick-ups, the M35A3 would probably be fine for that. The truck alone weighs nearly two times more than the typical pick-up, so I'd think low-gear rescues like that shouldn't be a problem.

The problems I see associated with deuces and this kind of work is when people decide it's a good idea to use it to do work that's better done with a 5-ton, like carrying big water tanks for brush fire fighting, or pulling loaded commercial trucks out of the ditch. This is even moreso important with the A3 because of its deratings. That's why I like the idea of 5-tons so much; they will do pretty much everything you ask it to and still be within data plate capacities.

Regardless of the truck, however, use the truck within spec and properly maintain it and it will last awhile and remain safe to operate.

Speaking of the 5-ton, do you know the model of the one you described as inoperable? There's probably a thread somewhere on this forum where someone had the same problem and solved it.

 

[glcaines]

I have an M35A3 W/W that I have owned going on 11 years now that I got directly from GL. I also owned an M35A2 W/W at the same time. I love my M35A3. It has turned out to be the most dependable MV I've ever owned, much more dependable than my A2. Once I replaced the gaskets on the wheel valve stems, the wheels hold air for ~6 months or more. I also switched to Dexron 3 in the original 1545 transmission, which made it shift much smoother. I drive my A3 several times per week and use the winch multiple times per month, mostly pulling timber in very mountainous terrain. It is almost a daily driver - I drove it ~70 miles this morning, unfortunately in the pouring rain. I also often pull an XM1061E1 trailer with the A3, which is a very heavy trailer designed to be pulled by a 5 Ton and not by a deuce. Once I started using the winch on the A3, I never went back to the winch on the A2. The hydraulic winch on the A3 is much easier to use than the PTO winch on the A2. Also, consider the heater. The cab heater in the A3 is substantially superior to the heater in the A2. The electric wipers are also much superior than the pneumatic wipers in the A2. And don't forget the tie-downs in the A3 bed - very useful. Although the CTIS on my A3 works perfectly, I manually air up my tires to 60 PSI, the max for the Michelin wheels. The truck drives better, is more economical and the tires wear better with the increased pressure. I have never had to add oil to the engine, it flat never uses any oil. The A3 engine is also the easiest starting diesel engine I've ever owned, period. The engine doesn't turn over more than 1 revolution before starting as long as the temperature isn't extremely cold. If the temp is down in the teens or below zero, one shot of ether and it starts right up. I finally sold my M35A2 W/W. Although it was a very good truck, I found myself always going for the A3.