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How does HMMWV shut down? Fuel shut off solenoid questions.

papakb

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Gentlemen, I think it's time to step back and consider all of this. From Wikipedia: As of 2015, Humvees are in use by the US Army, Marine Corps, Air Force, and Navy. The combined fleet numbers 140,000. While I agree that not everything they've done is such a brilliant idea there's a whole $hitload of these trucks out there that run just fine the way they were designed and maybe, just maybe we should stick with their design and not severely overthink the issue.

Just a thought.
 

Mullaney

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Gentlemen, I think it's time to step back and consider all of this. From Wikipedia: As of 2015, Humvees are in use by the US Army, Marine Corps, Air Force, and Navy. The combined fleet numbers 140,000. While I agree that not everything they've done is such a brilliant idea there's a whole $hitload of these trucks out there that run just fine the way they were designed and maybe, just maybe we should stick with their design and not severely overthink the issue.

Just a thought.
.
And most of them go down the road at between 45 and 55 and do that form of motoring just fine.
 

Guyfang

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Papakb hit it on the head. If it works, don't fool with it. My intent in posting a way to "make it work" was purely to get someone home, in a jam. Just like we were in deep crap with a NATO inspection. Its not a permanent fix. Just to limp home and then fix it right. The valve is there for a good reason.
 

87cr250r

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For those trying to bypass the solenoid, it's not cutting off fuel with a valve, it's moving the injection pump to the zero stroke position so that the pump no longer delivers fuel, overriding the governor. It can't be bypassed.

FYI, you can order the shutdown solenoid in an energize to stop configuration. You would have to install a momentary switch on your dash and hold it until the engine stops. This will prevent a solenoid failure from stranding you but will make stopping the engine with a dead battery a bit harder.
 
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nikojo

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If I simply remove the solenoid will that allow fuel to flow?

looks like solenoid default position is fuel off when solenoid off and there is a spring that holds lever. With solenoid energized it looks like it pulls lever off valve. That would seem that removing solenoid altogether will allow fuel to flow?
 

nikojo

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Read me:


You want the ETSO solenoid or else you'll be shoving a rag in the intake every time you need to stop your engine.
If the solenoid was removed couldn't you still shut down the engine by shutting off the fuel line going from the filter? (between filter and IP).

The fuel filter is right behind the dash/gauge panel. The fuel line runs from the filter to the IP. Install an in line manual valve in the area where fording valve normally goes. Splice into that line. Now you can turn fuel on and off from that valve.

Won't that work??

I may not understand all the subtleties of the IP and the shutoff solenoid.
 

nikojo

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87cr250r

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Two problems, the injection pump contains quite a bit of fuel and will keep the engine running for some time.

Second, the injection pump relies on a steady stream of fuel for cooling and lubrication. You NEVER want to starve the IP for fuel. There are actually two pumps in the housing, a vane pump that provides steady flow and pressure and the metering pump which times precise quantities of fuel at very high pressure into the cylinders. The shutdown solenoid moves the metering pump into a zero stroke position to stop fuel injection. There is still quite a bit of fuel moving through the pump at all times.

If you want a basic understanding of fuel injection study a jerk pump or unit injectors and the "helix". The rotary pumps are doing the same thing, just in a more complicated way.
 

Guyfang

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If the solenoid was removed couldn't you still shut down the engine by shutting off the fuel line going from the filter? (between filter and IP).

The fuel filter is right behind the dash/gauge panel. The fuel line runs from the filter to the IP. Install an in line manual valve in the area where fording valve normally goes. Splice into that line. Now you can turn fuel on and off from that valve.

Won't that work??

I may not understand all the subtleties of the IP and the shutoff solenoid.
Why go to all this work, to remove one wire?
 

Mogman

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If the solenoid was removed couldn't you still shut down the engine by shutting off the fuel line going from the filter? (between filter and IP).

The fuel filter is right behind the dash/gauge panel. The fuel line runs from the filter to the IP. Install an in line manual valve in the area where fording valve normally goes. Splice into that line. Now you can turn fuel on and off from that valve.

Won't that work??

I may not understand all the subtleties of the IP and the shutoff solenoid.
As stated above you will likely damage the IP from repeated lack of cooling fuel and lubrication, also re-starting will no doubt require a ton of starter time as you will likely have to re-prime the IP every time. (that would be real handy if someone was shooting at you!)

You will also be dead heading your lift pump so you might want to keep a good supply of those on hand.

IMHO you are looking for a solution to a problem that does not exist.

But I say Knock yourself out as after all it is your truck.
 

papakb

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I noticed in the Stanadyne service bulletin that thet aren't showing a 24v ETSO solenoid. So what do we use for a replacement? As far as carrying a spare I think most of us just keep a new top cover onboard if anything. I've read about all these issues but in 22 years I've never had a problem with mine and it sat for 5 years before I got it.
 

springer1981

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I want to thank you for this thread, its made me learn more than I thought I ever wanted to know about my IP. It seems the thread goals have "jumped" around. ie, What if the solenoid failed? How can we start it with a failed solenoid? How can we shut it off? Can we use a valve? etc...

The PDF supplied was enlightening and taught me how the Fuel Shut Off works. I surmised a manual system to override the solenoid in case of a failure prior to the PDF being posted. Turns out, according to the PDF, some actually have a manual override to allow emergency operation in the event of a solenoid failure. The concept is a good one though very unlikely it will ever be needed in our personal HMMWV's.

The thought of shutting down the engine using a fuel line valve has too many flaws IMO to be a workable solution, as others have pointed out. Realistically the shut down process of releasing the solenoid to stop the engine is all but fool proof. Literally turn off the power and the engine stops. There are very few if any component failures that would prevent that from happening. That said, it has always been my limited understanding of Diesel engines theory of operation, the fuel is metered but the air isn't. The engine is allowed all the air it wants at anytime but the fuel is changed to control the engines RPM's. If you stop the air the engine also stops. It would seem the best method to emergency stop the engine would be to introduce an air block off of some type. A large butterfly valve similar to a wood stove dampener that is cable operated would be pretty easy to do. However, the relative ease of killing the power to the solenoid with a switch would be just as effective IMO.

My conclusion for my vehicle is the current design needs nothing. I guess if my world revolved around my HMMWV running then I would consider an emergency override to allow my engine to run in the rare instance the solenoid failed.
 

springer1981

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I noticed in the Stanadyne service bulletin that thet aren't showing a 24v ETSO solenoid. So what do we use for a replacement? As far as carrying a spare I think most of us just keep a new top cover onboard if anything. I've read about all these issues but in 22 years I've never had a problem with mine and it sat for 5 years before I got it.
If I understand the way it works correctly, we have a ETR not a ETSO (not to be confused with a ESO). My reading of it and checking for replacement parts indicated the part to be 26387 ETR.

ETR = Energize To Run
ETSO = Energize To Shut Off
ESO = Electrical Shut Off (both of the above)

ESO.JPG
 

Mainsail

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Is yours a 12v system because that is a 12v solenoid and would be the wrong one for a HMMWV running a 24v system.
The M1009 is a 12v system (and I was careful to mention that), and yes it is not correct for the HMMWV, but might give one a starting place for their research.
 

springer1981

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The M1009 is a 12v system (and I was careful to mention that), and yes it is not correct for the HMMWV, but might give one a starting place for their research.
Thanks, I didn't recognize the M1009 number as Not a HMMWV. I don't know all the numbers of the vehicles and was assuming a HMMWV since this is the HMMWV forum. I didn't reread the thread to notice you mentioned it earlier. Sorry for the confusion.
 

Mainsail

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Thanks, I didn't recognize the M1009 number as Not a HMMWV. I don't know all the numbers of the vehicles and was assuming a HMMWV since this is the HMMWV forum. I didn't reread the thread to notice you mentioned it earlier. Sorry for the confusion.
I noticed that on the amazon page I linked, scroll down a bit, and a 24v one is displayed under "related products". Not saying this is the correct one as I haven't researched the 24v one.

They don't seem to fail often, but when it does you're pretty much stuck.
 

springer1981

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I noticed that on the amazon page I linked, scroll down a bit, and a 24v one is displayed under "related products". Not saying this is the correct one as I haven't researched the 24v one.

They don't seem to fail often, but when it does you're pretty much stuck.
I actually looked at that one when I followed your link earlier and that one is cheap chinese crap. I did find some New OEM and some New "Made in Italy" replacement 24v 26387 solenoids on ebay between $37-95.
 
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