Keyed ignition question

[MattNC]

I know it’s been mentioned many times about keyed ignitions being a bad idea. Can I ask an ignorant question of why an ignition switch if rated for 24V would still be a problem? Is it amp draw through it? Any idea what the amp draw is through the switch for an M998? I guess I could clamp on the amp meter and try to experiment. Ill admit I have a keyed one on now and it’s been there for 18 months. Half for some security out and about, the other half due to my kids and others liking to play in it while parked.

 

[Coug]

I know it’s been mentioned many times about keyed ignitions being a bad idea. Can I ask an ignorant question of why an ignition switch if rated for 24V would still be a problem? Is it amp draw through it? Any idea what the amp draw is through the switch for an M998? I guess I could clamp on the amp meter and try to experiment. Ill admit I have a keyed one on now and it’s been there for 18 months. Half for some security out and about, the other half due to my kids and others liking to play in it while parked.

I don't know how much amperage goes through it, but the failure rate seems excessively high for what's basically a very simple switch.
I don't know whether the ones made in China (which it seems pretty much all of them are) just suffer from poor materials or craftsmanship, or they just can't handle the stressed of all the vibrations these trucks have compared to most civilian rigs.



For mine for security, I did a keyed battery disconnect.

KEYED BATTERY CUTOFF SWITCH FOR HMMWV (DRIVER SIDE MOUNTING)

This keyed battery cut off is designed just for your HMMWV! This kit is designed specifically to be mounted on the driver side location.Now you can have peace-of-mind when you leave your truck unattended. The keyed switch is rated at 180 continuous amps and will handle a 1000 amp surge. The...

thosemilitaryguys.com

Still accessible from the driver's seat, but completely disconnects the battery ground so it doesn't matter what switches get played with it won't drain the battery, plus I don't have to remove the passenger seat every time I need to work on the electrical system (which you should always disconnect the ground when doing).
It's not the most secure switch because it's a standard forklift key to operate it, but it will keep kids and others from doing anything too quickly.

 

[Milcommoguy]

I get the need for thief / security. First thing that stands out when you get your rig. While an obvious need in today world, quit going cheap with made up crap switches.

Research is the key... haha no specs, no buy. > http://colehersee.com.au/product/marine-switch-3-position-ignition/

Anybody who understand how to hot wire a car (not so much with today's kids) Humv as got to be the easiest.

Better would be a keyed battery cut off switch. Keep run-start OEM switch and hide this one > http://colehersee.com.au/product/cat-oem-master-switch/

DIY key or battery switch easy. Another idea with secret switch killing IP pump, Just don't go cheap.

Whats your HumV worth? CAMO

 

[TOBASH]

Essentially the OP is asking “why would a device built in China advertise that said device is rated for 24V, and then fail?”

Everything built in Chairman Mao’s country is always so reliable, so I can’t imaging anything from there being manufactured poorly. They built the COVID-19 virus, told no one until it was too late, and look how robust the COVID-19 is.

I think the OP needs to step back and understand that what is advertised is not always what is real.

Ever hear of “snake oil”?

 

[MattNC]

Nice jump to conclusions??? I need to check honestly where it was made but it was not a cheap keyed ignition, it was north of $100 and was spec'd well for the application I just wanted to ask from those who have seen the failures.

I'd also add as a Michigan native who grew up fed by the auto industry that quality is a very fluid term. We had to leave the state when the industry got schooled on what quality was by the Japanese and jobs evaporated. Luckily old dogs were able to learn new tricks.

Lastly not sure how an ignition question got over to Covid but as a medical professional leading a covid effort for the government your conclusions are a bit off and not supported by peer reviewed research. Maybe we can just stay focused on military vehicles??

 

[MattNC]

Thanks also Coug and Milcommoguy for the keyed cutoff ideas. I started with one of the generic cutoffs but wasn't impressed by the quality or the fact the key wasn't really very secure, and the fuel delivery keyed switches were interesting but I'd like to kill everything as the last time the battery was run dead it was my teenage son leaving an accessory on.

 

[Milcommoguy]

I know it’s been mentioned many times about keyed ignitions being a bad idea. Can I ask an ignorant question of why an ignition switch if rated for 24V would still be a problem? Is it amp draw through it? Any idea what the amp draw is through the switch for an M998? I guess I could clamp on the amp meter and try to experiment. Ill admit I have a keyed one on now and it’s been there for 18 months. Half for some security out and about, the other half due to my kids and others liking to play in it while parked.

Not a bad question. How many time did MOM say "don't touch that stove"

So it's a cool 86 degrees now, with a high of 108 +. I got up off MY butt and went out to the basic M998 truck with Fluke model 79 & Amp probe 80i - 110s to dooo a follow up to a burning question with science.

STOP, RUN, START switch. These measurements in series with the switch common (battery) and are ONLY switch currents.

In the OFF position, NO measurable current flow.
In the RUN position, 1.8 Amps flows to the PCB to energize master power solenoid. All other circuits are supplied from PCB to IP, heater, wipers, gauges, etc.
In the START position, 8.1 Amps, during starter solenoid energize. Momentary cranking time.

HumV switch circuit never takes on additional loads. IMO these figures with a quality switch are easy to handle, providing long term operation.

One may think they have a nice $76.99 switch with pretty wires, "plug and play" till that day... and POOF !! truck won't start. Read about it right here on SS POOF, POOF, POOF 3 or 4 time a year.

My observation is the start contacts burn due to a bit higher current flow of the underrated cheap switch. AND more important... A large inductive arc of those contacts during starter solenoid engage / release. Switch not rated for inductive loads. Google it.

Another kicker... not that water / dust proof, causing more of a chance to POOF. Cheap quality,, questionable specification, equals POOF. That's the science. POOF is the scientific word for blow out, over loaded, busted... screwed works too.

Some more numbers....

Lighting circuits do not flow thru switch above. They are their own separate circuit. Connection thru PCB to battery all the time.
Stop lights on, incandescent bulbs, 3 Amps
Marker / park only, incandescent bulbs, 1.8 Amps
Service lights + LED head lights low, 4.9 Amps
Service lights + LED head lights HI 6.2 Amps

Accessories......
Heater on HI, 5.7 Amps
Wipers on HI, 5.2

Total system draw at SHUNT (what's a that)
RUN 5.1 Amps Includes PCB & IP. NO other loading.
START 181 Amps Momentary cranking
GLOW WAIT 102 Amps Outside temperature 89 degrees, first time cycle.
Measured with all accessories off. IP fuel solenoid energized, cold advance off.

So there you GO some number to roll around in ones head.

Can I ask (that a trapping question) Ignorant not sure? Been there 18 month (how many times you flip it ?) Any idea on current? (has a meter) 24 volt rating (is that Chinzee or USA Volts)

Did I jump to a conclusion ? NO... jumped right in and shared data, figured it out.

Now its 105 and climbing & i'am getting hot around the collar.

Take it to the dealer next time, CAMO

 

[TOBASH]

Nice jump to conclusions??? I need to check honestly where it was made but it was not a cheap keyed ignition, it was north of $100 and was spec'd well for the application I just wanted to ask from those who have seen the failures.

I'd also add as a Michigan native who grew up fed by the auto industry that quality is a very fluid term. We had to leave the state when the industry got schooled on what quality was by the Japanese and jobs evaporated. Luckily old dogs were able to learn new tricks.

Lastly not sure how an ignition question got over to Covid but as a medical professional leading a covid effort for the government your conclusions are a bit off and not supported by peer reviewed research. Maybe we can just stay focused on military vehicles??

I do not believe your switch was made in USA, Japan, South Korea, or Germany, as they are not typically made there. I have worked with research fellows from mainline China, and they are brilliant and affable. The problem is they are not the ones in charge of production. My statements are not made out of prejudice. Just because you paid $100 is not a sign of quality. If the switch is made in USA, Japan, S.Korea, Germany, great and I stand corrected.

These switches are also bad ideas because they just go bad. I have one, and I purchased a replacement from RWH to replace it, along with his radiofrequency device that prevents the ignition switch from working when it is not present. It is like a radiofrequency key fob.

You need to contact RWH, and get that same radiofrequncy device if you are concerned about safety.

RE.: Your statements about COVID-19...

I am a physician in New York. We were the unfortunate "ground zero" a second time due to this virus. As a fellow physician who is also chest deep in the COVID-19 crisis, I feel qualified to make a few statements of my own. I too am a physician who has also reviewed the literature. I have also seen the satellite imagery of hospital parking lots in mainland China that were filled to capacity as far back as AUGUST 2019. THAT phenomenon was hidden by that government, and is still not widely reported by the press. They hid the truth for months. COVID-19 started in Wuhan, was hidden and poorly controlled by China, and came to us via Europe as per the genetic testing. Now The World is paying the price. So I would prefer to spend my $ for products made in USA, Japan, S. Korea, and the Germany that is now our ally.

 

[MattNC]

Thanks CAMO. I definitely wasn't bothered by your feedback at all. More the other post. Thanks for the data, I love data driven decisions. I have used the switch I have a thousand times probably as the truck gets used a lot. I did toss the spec sheet when it came in but it was rated to 36 volts and amp numbers I can't remember but seemed pretty high for what it was controlling. I pulled it from the truck to look a little while ago and unfortunately there is nothing listed on it at all. So it probably is safe to say a generic chinese/taiwanese/whatever part and I can't remember the names from the sheet 18 months ago. I had piles of parts I was replacing during the rebuild and its a blur. So to be safe I'm putting getting the quality versions you guys mentioned on the to-do list.

My main question was not so much that I couldn't put a amp meter on there (thank you so much again), but just wondering from the huge amount of experience here where people saw it fail. Did the switch burn up internally, cause a harness to burn up, connections, etc. Again for the relatively low cost of getting quality I can just let my curiosity die and buy the known quality part.

 

[MattNC]

We're on the same page now TOBASH!

 

[Milcommoguy]

Haven't heard of a truck burning to the ground or wiring. Have heard of intermittent operation or starter sticking and really not sure if it was the switch or starter solenoid. Like what else could go wrong????

A poorly design switch with inferior contact metals, non wiping contacts, contact tension, contact surface area, coupled with the mechanical action , etc and no part number / markings, paperwork... Would be a deal breaker for me. Maybe a know brand name, made in Mexico. That could be a good one ??? Don't know.

Quality is a balancing act, the old cost verses performance and if cheeped out on any of the areas it could be a problem.

For such a simple DYI add on / upgrade (not so sure), sellers sure get a lot of money for them. Add the fact that lots of trucks are selling...key switches could be a booming business... ah hustle.

Best to know what you got, how it works, and how to work around it, if stranded.

Watch out for other possible knock off electrics for Humv's too. Just saying. YRMV

Don't want to take it in the shorts, CAMO

 

[diesel dave]

I purchased a plug and keyed switch from one of the venders whom advertise here about 5 years ago. I’ve had no issues with it. However,I also make sure my glow plugs are ALL working 100%.With that said,my truck starts instantly, so there’s no long cranking to over heat a switch. It is my opinion,that long cranking because of a poor starting truck could be the cause of switch failure. My 2 cents.

 

[Milcommoguy]

Hello diesel dave,

You might be on to something. A good switch contacts should handle the RUN positions easily. Going to the START position could be a bit more iffy.
Good quality contacts with very low resistance is definitely what you want under load. Any voltage drop across contacts (resistance) is going to induce heat and that's a problem. Longer on times = more heating. One rated continuous would be the way to go, but good luck finding any info.

Having truck tuned and quick starting is KEY. lol

Not an endorsement but the spec are very good and stated. DIY 3 wires with military connectors and done. Crazy low price. QEM switch priced 5 times plus.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pco-5503pt

Live for another day. Plug and pray, CAMO

 

[TOBASH]

I still think Steve (RWH) sells the best device. It allows retention of the stock ignition switch but prevents starting because it is a radiofrequency fob that must be in proximity of the vehicle to start. Simple, effective, safe, robust.

 

[Milcommoguy]

Just what I need. Another battery to go dead. AAHHH just messing with TOBASH. Where's that U-tube how to PCB - ESSS Video?

Roll credits in 3-2-1, CAMO

 

[papakb]

Buy American!

 

[MattNC]

Diesel Dave I am definitely benefitting like you said from a quick starting truck. Mine got a newly rebuilt motor right before it went to auction and starts really quick even cold. Like you said it asks less out of the contacts then.

I did think last night the switch finally bit me. I was driving back from a day of running equipment at the farm, beautiful evening and the truck started to cough and gauges were flipping back and forth. Especially every time I hit a bump. I pulled over turned it off and since I had pulled the switch to look at it I figured I should check the connections. Sure enough I hadn't pushed in the packard connector enough. Luckily a quick fix and I didn't spend labor day evening on the side of the road!

 

[M1151A1]

Not a bad question. How many time did MOM say "don't touch that stove"

So it's a cool 86 degrees now, with a high of 108 +. I got up off MY butt and went out to the basic M998 truck with Fluke model 79 & Amp probe 80i - 110s to dooo a follow up to a burning question with science.

STOP, RUN, START switch. These measurements in series with the switch common (battery) and are ONLY switch currents.

In the OFF position, NO measurable current flow.
In the RUN position, 1.8 Amps flows to the PCB to energize master power solenoid. All other circuits are supplied from PCB to IP, heater, wipers, gauges, etc.
In the START position, 8.1 Amps, during starter solenoid energize. Momentary cranking time.

HumV switch circuit never takes on additional loads. IMO these figures with a quality switch are easy to handle, providing long term operation.

One may think they have a nice $76.99 switch with pretty wires, "plug and play" till that day... and POOF !! truck won't start. Read about it right here on SS POOF, POOF, POOF 3 or 4 time a year.

My observation is the start contacts burn due to a bit higher current flow of the underrated cheap switch. AND more important... A large inductive arc of those contacts during starter solenoid engage / release. Switch not rated for inductive loads. Google it.

Another kicker... not that water / dust proof, causing more of a chance to POOF. Cheap quality,, questionable specification, equals POOF. That's the science. POOF is the scientific word for blow out, over loaded, busted... screwed works too.

Some more numbers....

Lighting circuits do not flow thru switch above. They are their own separate circuit. Connection thru PCB to battery all the time.
Stop lights on, incandescent bulbs, 3 Amps
Marker / park only, incandescent bulbs, 1.8 Amps
Service lights + LED head lights low, 4.9 Amps
Service lights + LED head lights HI 6.2 Amps

Accessories......
Heater on HI, 5.7 Amps
Wipers on HI, 5.2

Total system draw at SHUNT (what's a that)
RUN 5.1 Amps Includes PCB & IP. NO other loading.
START 181 Amps Momentary cranking
GLOW WAIT 102 Amps Outside temperature 89 degrees, first time cycle.
Measured with all accessories off. IP fuel solenoid energized, cold advance off.

So there you GO some number to roll around in ones head.

Can I ask (that a trapping question) Ignorant not sure? Been there 18 month (how many times you flip it ?) Any idea on current? (has a meter) 24 volt rating (is that Chinzee or USA Volts)

Did I jump to a conclusion ? NO... jumped right in and shared data, figured it out.

Now its 105 and climbing & i'am getting hot around the collar.

Take it to the dealer next time, CAMOView attachment 811076

Not a bad question. How many time did MOM say "don't touch that stove"

So it's a cool 86 degrees now, with a high of 108 +. I got up off MY butt and went out to the basic M998 truck with Fluke model 79 & Amp probe 80i - 110s to dooo a follow up to a burning question with science.

STOP, RUN, START switch. These measurements in series with the switch common (battery) and are ONLY switch currents.

In the OFF position, NO measurable current flow.
In the RUN position, 1.8 Amps flows to the PCB to energize master power solenoid. All other circuits are supplied from PCB to IP, heater, wipers, gauges, etc.
In the START position, 8.1 Amps, during starter solenoid energize. Momentary cranking time.

HumV switch circuit never takes on additional loads. IMO these figures with a quality switch are easy to handle, providing long term operation.

One may think they have a nice $76.99 switch with pretty wires, "plug and play" till that day... and POOF !! truck won't start. Read about it right here on SS POOF, POOF, POOF 3 or 4 time a year.

My observation is the start contacts burn due to a bit higher current flow of the underrated cheap switch. AND more important... A large inductive arc of those contacts during starter solenoid engage / release. Switch not rated for inductive loads. Google it.

Another kicker... not that water / dust proof, causing more of a chance to POOF. Cheap quality,, questionable specification, equals POOF. That's the science. POOF is the scientific word for blow out, over loaded, busted... screwed works too.

Some more numbers....

Lighting circuits do not flow thru switch above. They are their own separate circuit. Connection thru PCB to battery all the time.
Stop lights on, incandescent bulbs, 3 Amps
Marker / park only, incandescent bulbs, 1.8 Amps
Service lights + LED head lights low, 4.9 Amps
Service lights + LED head lights HI 6.2 Amps

Accessories......
Heater on HI, 5.7 Amps
Wipers on HI, 5.2

Total system draw at SHUNT (what's a that)
RUN 5.1 Amps Includes PCB & IP. NO other loading.
START 181 Amps Momentary cranking
GLOW WAIT 102 Amps Outside temperature 89 degrees, first time cycle.
Measured with all accessories off. IP fuel solenoid energized, cold advance off.

So there you GO some number to roll around in ones head.

Can I ask (that a trapping question) Ignorant not sure? Been there 18 month (how many times you flip it ?) Any idea on current? (has a meter) 24 volt rating (is that Chinzee or USA Volts)

Did I jump to a conclusion ? NO... jumped right in and shared data, figured it out.

Now its 105 and climbing & i'am getting hot around the collar.

Take it to the dealer next time, CAMOView attachment 811076

Hello gentlemen. I am new in the family. Can you recommend me a keyed switch please.

 

[Mogman]

Hello gentlemen. I am new in the family. Can you recommend me a keyed switch please.

Welcome to the forum, common wisdom is any keyed switch will cost you dearly in the end, none are made to take the loads and voltage the HMMWV puts on the run switch, it is said that many expensive starters and EESS boxes have died at the hands of a keyed switch.

 

[Mainsail]

I've abandoned the idea it has anything to do with the electrical load inside the switch- there isn't much 'load' for the neutral safety switch that current technology can't overcome. I think it's more an issue of switch quality and tolerance stacking- loose tolerances inside cause electrical paths that should never cross... to cross. Boom boom out go the lights.

I have a good quality (so far) keyed switch mounted to the underside of the dash below the HVAC switches. If it fails it's pretty far from the legs with the real load on them, so worst-case is the truck doesn't start for me, or it will start for anyone.