440 Dodge w/727 Deuce

[abh3]

Some of you may have seen my earlier posts about potential swaps, Cummins V555, etc but I decided to go the easy way and replace the bad Multi with a good Multi. Problem is, that 'good engine' also had a bad bottom end (oil pump idler-gear shaft had BROKEN) so I was out of luck again and WAY tired of Multis!!

Anyway, here's my 440/727 combo in the truck. I've driven it around the barn but the carb has sat too long and the driveshaft I made of Dodge front driveshaft parts (hey, it was all lying under the welding table, what the he11) has a few clearance issues yoke to yoke. Oh, and there's no exhaust yet. But those are smaller things on the big scale of swapping struggles...

The worst part was mounting the air compressor, so as not to be running back to the shop every few stops for more air, and getting the fan in the radiator shroud to avoid electic fan$ took a little time. I've swapped in a few Autozone mechanical gauges to monitor the vitals.

As a farmer down the road told me once, "There ain't nuthin' cain't be done with'n a cuttin' torch and an arc welder!" I think he may be right...

 

[Towman2277]

RE: 440 Dodge w/727 Duece

Did you keep the transfer case? Is it in stock location if you did??

 

[rizzo]

RE: 440 Dodge w/727 Duece

lets see more pics

 

[abh3]

Got the carb doing pretty well but the driveshaft is whacked... I did some 'relieving' of the yokes on the bench grinder but it sounds like it is still hitting itself or at least vibrating like a ho's dream. Of course, wide open exhaust tends to make the drive a bit hectic anyway, my head's vibrating too! After some eyeballing it looks like part might have 'pulled' while welding up without enough tacking to hold it still. That could do it. My bad.

The stock M35 transfer case is in the stock location. The loooong tailshaft on the 727 created some problems, as in a real short driveshaft and not the best angles given the whole thing is over quite a bit to the right to clear the steering shaft and get the fan in the shroud. I'm just going to re-do the driveshaft using the stock driveshaft and an output flange from a Duece trans. I'll bore a hole in the flange that will take the slip-joint part of the 727's output yoke so the stock driveshaft will just bolt up, get it looking right and put a set screw in the Duece shaft slip joint. Then, if the vibration is just too much from the angle/phasing, it will be to move the whole engine/trans back closer to the cenerline and look at angles again... That would have to wait for the weekend and a case or so of beer to lure some help into the barn!

I'll try to get some more pictures of the cross-members and mounts. I'm hoping I can get it to town to get some exhaust on it this week... barring major re-engineering!

 

[jeli]

RE: 440 Dodge w/727 Duece

More pics and how much clearance did you have with the steering shaft? I've got a big block Chev under my bench just resting.

From your last pic I guess there isn't a problem with clearance between a rear mounted distributor and the firewall!!!!!

 

[abh3]

There's probably an inch and a half between the left exhaust manifiold and the steering shaft. If it needed to be exactly on the centerline I'd have to look at a what is available in stock manifolds for clearance, turn one upside down, etc... Also, with a BB Dodge the width really lets you know an inline six used to live between those frame rails. I suppose headers could be fabricated, etc but I really wanted to do this as simply as possible, using what I have on hand in the barn or lying around here, 'Junkyard Wars' style... I know most manufacturers made many different exhaust manifolds for any particular engine so I'm sure you can find something for the BB Chevy.

So far the only thing I've bought from a store, as opposed to sourcing from my treasures (junk to my kids) right here around and about the place, has been fluids, filters, some hoses, clamps, belts and a few 12v gauges! The shifter was donated by a 300e Mercedes wreck.

The engine is so far forward because of the above mentioned 727 tailshaft, it's a long one. No distributor clearance issues with these, they are on the front leaning to the right. If you have a choice of transmission lengths go for the shorter one! Since it sat so far forward I decided to move the whole thing to the right to get the fan in the shroud and make virtue from necessity... I know many vehicles don't have engines exactly on the centerline though this may be to the extreme with the short drive shaft, time will tell!

 

[rizzo]

luke has his angled a little toward the t-case input and a very short shaft welded in his barn.

 

[Recovry4x4]

Looks like a great place for a small genset between the firewall and beck of the engine. LOL

 

[rizzo]

Looks like a great place for a small genset between the firewall and beck of the engine. LOL

lol My M810 had a Cummins in it and it has even more room. almost the whoel motor and trans is in the engine bay. I was thinking of mounting the air compressor there

I'll take some pics later

 

[McGuyver]

Judging by your description and the pictures you've attached, sounds like you are running a 440 BB/727 torqueflite combo from a car that had the long output shaft and housing, and then you are just fabbing up a short intermediate drive line to the stock transfer case. This is essentially a divorced transfer case set up. Another way you could do this is is to run the 727 loadfilte tranny (this is the version with adapter housing and short output shaft) and mate it up to a NP203 in a married transfer case setup. But then you'd have to probably adjust your front and rear drive line lengths, so it may be six's on which is easier/preferable. In any case, it's nice to see someone using some classic Mopar motivation under the hood.

 

[pa.rich]

dont have a manual trans for that? Wouldn't a manual take less length? Anyways, its an accomplishment, and good luck. I bet it would sound good with headers and double stacks on it. Sounds like you've been thru the proverbial mill working on this project. you have more patience than me, thats for sure.

 

[jeli]

A manual trans is possible but way more work. The shifter has to come into the cab so that will in part dictate location. A hydraulic clutch solves one problem. My BB chev needs TLC but was balanced with a flywheel for a manual trans. I'd consider a 5 speed from a school bus or med truck. An auto is a much simpler install. It can't be any worse of an install, other than time, than a big block S-10. At least there is room to work on a deuce.

 

[McGuyver]

The BB 440's that were mated to the auto 727 tranny didn't have the bore in the end of the crank needed for the pilot bushing. You would either need to get the hole drilled and bored, or find a crank that came out of an engine that was mated to a manual transmission.

 

[clinto]

The BB 440's that were mated to the auto 727 tranny didn't have the bore in the end of the crank needed for the pilot bushing. You would either need to get the hole drilled and bored, or find a crank that came out of an engine that was mated to a manual transmission.

Actually, this is not true anymore.

It was in the past, I have had to have cranks reamed for manual trans conversions.

However, modern Mopars have a pilot bearing that is installed in the hub ring for the torque converter and this modern pilot bearing interchanges 100% with older Mopars. This is what I used in my last 440 in fact.

This upgrade has also breathed life into many 4 speed's that had had their input shaft's cut down to install behind engines that didn't have reamed cranks. Before this, these 4 speed were pretty much relegated to being parts donors, as the cost of input shafts was pretty much the same as another transmission (especially for the 18 spline "Hemi" 4 speeds). But, since the modern pilot bearing rides much closer to the splines, these cut-down units can be used with no problems.

Here's the full write up:

http://www.moparaction.com/Tech/quest1/BUSH_LEAGUE.html

 

[Elwenil]

Headers would solve the manifold issue. A B series engine would also not be as wide. There are short tailshaft versions of the 727, but good luck finding one for a big block as they are rare. Might be worth it to swipe one out of a old aircraft tug and swap the tailshaft and housing. You would lose about 10" in transmission length. Also there are some SAE bellhousings for B and RB Mopar engines if you wanted to find a way to use a Deuce trans.

 

[m108]

Some 727's used in 1 ton trucks from the 70's had a fixed yoke that was shorter also.I had a 72 2 wheel drive made like that.What SAE bellhousing #'s will work?

 

[Elwenil]

Yeah, those are pretty short also. Should be any automatic 4WD truck from the mid 60s to 1974.

 

[rizzo]

Judging by your description and the pictures you've attached, sounds like you are running a 440 BB/727 torqueflite combo from a car that had the long output shaft and housing, and then you are just fabbing up a short intermediate drive line to the stock transfer case. This is essentially a divorced transfer case set up. Another way you could do this is is to run the 727 loadfilte tranny (this is the version with adapter housing and short output shaft) and mate it up to a NP203 in a married transfer case setup. But then you'd have to probably adjust your front and rear drive line lengths, so it may be six's on which is easier/preferable. In any case, it's nice to see someone using some classic Mopar motivation under the hood.

this is on the list for my M810 this winter. Except I am keeeping the stock t-case too. the deuce is light enough that it doesn't really need a double t-case.

 

[McGuyver]

The BB 440's that were mated to the auto 727 tranny didn't have the bore in the end of the crank needed for the pilot bushing. You would either need to get the hole drilled and bored, or find a crank that came out of an engine that was mated to a manual transmission.

Actually, this is not true anymore.

It was in the past, I have had to have cranks reamed for manual trans conversions.

However, modern Mopars have a pilot bearing that is installed in the hub ring for the torque converter and this modern pilot bearing interchanges 100% with older Mopars. This is what I used in my last 440 in fact.

This upgrade has also breathed life into many 4 speed's that had had their input shaft's cut down to install behind engines that didn't have reamed cranks. Before this, these 4 speed were pretty much relegated to being parts donors, as the cost of input shafts was pretty much the same as another transmission (especially for the 18 spline "Hemi" 4 speeds). But, since the modern pilot bearing rides much closer to the splines, these cut-down units can be used with no problems.

Here's the full write up:

http://www.moparaction.com/Tech/quest1/BUSH_LEAGUE.html

Thanks for the heads up Clinto. This opens up some interesting possibilities. So let me make sure I understand this tech question correctly: There was a NAPA part number 615-1033 that was undersized and pressed into the existing drilled hole in the crank, but was discontinued since the location of this hole is not as accurate as that of a reamed hole. However another bushing was developed that was larger and would locate on the machined torque converter hub (is this the hub on the crank that the flex plate centers on and is just inside the bolt circle?) this bushing is NAPA p/n 53009180AB. If you've got any pictures that show the difference, it would be very helpfull in clarifying this. Thanks!

 

[clinto]

You are correct McGuyver.

Napa developed the special bushing as engines got swapped and there was a market need.

But Chrysler developed the modern style pilot bearing and luckily, it retrogrades all the way back to at least 1958, when the B engine first appeared.