Can a Deuce to tow a Deuce on a trailer without a CDL ? Yes.

[kochevnik]

Can a Deuce tow a Deuce on a trailer without a CDL ? Nope Guess not

I can see the heads shaking now

Watch me pull a rabbit from this hat (said the moose to the squirrel).

Reference the attached diagrams. The first is from the Washington state DMV and it is a matrix for determining if you need a CDL based on the Federal rules so it should work pretty well for any state. The second is from the Tranportability TM (55-2320-209-15-1).

I'm going to round up the weights I use in this example, because it makes things tougher and the example less likely to work.

We have :

a) towing Deuce ww (14,000 pounds)
b) 25+5 trailer RATED for 10,000 pounds with lunette ring (two 5000 pound axles situated as far to the rear as possible - this last part is going to be important - or even better a single 10,000 pound rated axle). Empty weight of trailer is 4000 pounds - each axle weighs 1000 pounds + deck & lunette are about 2000 pounds. (Most of the trailers I have seen advertised this size actually spec out at about 3000 pounds, but I'm leaving a lot of room for adding ramps, chains etc)
c) recovery Deuce ww (14,000 pounds)
d) all tires well over needed weight rating

First, we stop at DOT weigh station on our recovery trip. Empty trailer. Tongue weight is about 1000 pounds.

DOT guys weigh axles (from front to rear) :

#1 - front Deuce axle - 7000
#2 - front rear Deuce axle - 4000 (3500 + 500 half the tongue weight from the trailer)
#3 - rear rear Deuce axle - 4000 (3500 + 500 half the tongue weight from the trailer)
#4 - trailer axle - 3000 (4000 - 1000 pounds transferred to the Deuce pintle hitch)

Combined gross weight = 18k

Now lets look at the CDL issue. Follow the bouncing ball -

WA State Licensing: Vehicles requiring a CDL

1) Combo vehicle ? YES
2) GWR of trailer over 10k ? NO
3) GWR of tow vehicle over 26k ? NO
4) 16 people, school bus, hazmat ? NO

STOP - YOU DON'T NEED A CDL.

Now we recover our new Deuce, when we load it on the 25+5 trailer we position it so that the center of gravity (CofG) of the recovered Deuce is placed pretty much on the midpoint between the lunette ring/pintle hitch and the center of the trailer's tandems. If the center of the trailer tandems is 2 feet from the rear of the trailer (remember from above that we put them as far rearward as possible) then it is 28 feet (25 + 5 - 2) from the center of the trailer axles to the lunette ring.

The CofG of the Deuce is about 7 feet (85 inches according to the diagram from the TM) from the center of the front axle - approximately in line with the front of the bed. So we mark the trailer bed at 16 feet from the rear of the trailer (half the 28 feet + the 2 feet for the tandem center). This puts the front axle of the recovery deuce about 2 feet from the front of the trailer deck. The front of the deuce would then overhang the lunette frame about 29 inches (53 inches - 24 inches) - not sure if this would cause problems or not - if it did, you just need a trailer with a longer deck so it didn't overhang as much.

Now we stop at the DOT weigh station on the way back.

Because the deuce CofG is at the midpoint between the lunette and the center of the trailer tandems, this should result in 50 percent of the recovery Deuce's weight being transferred to the tongue weight and 50 percent ending up on the trailer axles. Now the scale shows the following weights :

#1 - 7000
#2 - 7500 (4000 + 3500 1/4 the recovery Deuce)
#3 - 7500 (4000 + 3500 1/4 the recovery Deuce)
#4 - 10000 (3000 + 7000 1/2 the recovery Deuce)

Tow Deuce weight = 7000 + 7500 + 7500 = 22,000
Trailer weight = 10,000
Note that the total COMBINED weight is now 32,000 pounds BUT we have not exceeded the RATINGS for our tires, nor any of our axles, NOR the weight ratings for the tow Deuce or the trailer. The trailer at 10,000 pounds is pretty much right at the limit, but adjustments could be made to get this a bit lower for more wiggle room.

NO TICKETS FOR BEING OVERWEIGHT.


Now we go back and look at the CDL issue again - since whether or not you need a CDL is based on the RATINGS for the tow vehicle and the trailer - nothing has changed.

1) Combo vehicle ? YES
2) GVWR of trailer over 10k ? NO
3) GVWR of tow vehicle over 26k ? NO
4) 16 people, school bus, hazmat ? NO


STOP - YOU DON'T NEED A CDL.


There's your rabbit.

BTW - I got the information for creating this example from a forum where someone who has gone thru hundreds of DOT weight stations all over the US has done something just like this, regularly exceeding 26k total weight, while staying UNDER the CDL limits. I'll have to post the link next week to their own LONG discussion as I don't have it on this computer.

The questions I can think of would be :

1) Does overhanging the front of the Deuce over the lunette frame cause any issues (if so use a trailer with a longer bed or swap a single axle in the rear of the trailer instead of tandems) - or pull the winch and the bumper I guess.

2) What is the real world effect on the the actual weight on the towing Deuce's front axle under this setup. My college physics statics & dynamics course says some of that trailer weight would actually end up on the front axles of the towing Deuce not just the rear axles/pintle hitch.

3) Is putting 8000 pounds on the pintle hitch one of those really bad ideas ? If so I guess this example would still work if you used a M275 Deuce tractor or a 5th wheel centered over the rear axles of the towing Deuce.

Other things to consider for adjusting purposes would be pulling one tire/wheel combo off of each of the recovery deuce tandems and putting them in the bed of the tow Deuce. This would transfer about 1000 pounds from the total weight on the trailer. Keep in mind too, that a Deuce w/ow would be about 13,050 pounds - TM does not say if that includes fuel or not - anyone know ?

Anyways - if this would work this option looks to me to be much safer than a lot the other non-CDL recovery options I have seen people do here. And you could make it even safer considering that there are now a LOT of cheap ($4000 to $8000) used non-CDL Internationals and Freightliners on Ebay and elsewhere right now. Or just skip the trailer altogether :

International flatbed eqpt hauler:eBay Motors (item 110465622733 end time Dec-10-09 12:29:42 PST)


So what do the experts think ?

 

[1stDeuce]

Ok, I'll bite... first, I believe there should be an * at the end of your title. I say this because your whole argument is based on oversimplifying and guessing at weights, leading to your conclusion. I believe the reality of the question is slightly different. I'll admit, I only scanned quickly... Here are my concerns:

1. A deuce with 7000 lbs of tongue weight would probably not steer at all. Good luck!
2. A 4000lb trailer that has a 10,000 lb GVW was really not meant to have 7000lbs of tongue weight and 10,000 on the axles, it was meant to weigh in total 10,000 lbs so far as I know. On top of that, you'd need a VERY long trailer with the axles at the VERY back. I've never seen such a thing, but I suppose you could build it.
3. At least in MI, I believe any combo in excess of 26k (reguardless of ratings) requires a cdl. I could be wrong given entirely private ownership though...

So is this your plan, or are you just trying to prove a point without actually doing anything? I want some pics, mainly to see what the trailer and towing truck look like in this scenario.
Good Luck!
C

 

[rlwm211]

I must add to this intellectual discussion....

Now the maximum velocity of the towing vehcile is ......25? maybe 30? downhill, with a tailwind. You might go faster, but your brakes will not stop you.

I would venture that this is far more load than the deuce was ever conceived of carrying or carrying and towing as a combined vehicle on any road surface.

Just my two cents worth

RL

 

[kochevnik]

Not a plan - just trying to see if this would work or not.

1) You could be right about this, but a Deuce tractor would have much much more than 8000 pounds situated about 6 feet forward of the pintle hitch. And as I stated above, you could use the 5th wheel instead of a pintle hitch and this example still should work.

2) It is possible that the trailer would need a thicker frame, but maybe not. I wouldn't guess that the weakest part of the trailer would be the frame but the axles. And pretty much every lowboy trailer is designed this way with the axles all the way to the rear, nothing new.

3) The Michigan laws mirror the diagram above :

Applying for a New Michigan Commercial Drivers License - DMV Guide


Good points - but if needed, you stiffen the frame and go to a gooseneck or 5th wheel hitch - but I have seen 45,000 pound pintle hitches on Ebay.

No point in building something that doesn't pass the design phase - or thru the eyes of people who have been there, done that. That's why I posted.

 

[rat4spd]

No matter how you slice it, you still have 14,000# on a trailer meant to haul 6,000# regardless of how you shift the COG around. Nice for theoretical computation, but in my opinion, not wise.

 

[kochevnik]

Ah - there we go - thanks RLWM - the tow rating on the Deuce is just 10,000 pounds. So that shoots that idea.

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/deuce/14759-max-towing-capacity-m35.html#post144630

So would it work with a 5 ton ? I assume the 5 ton tow rating would be 20,000 pounds highway ?

And it should work with a civi truck of the non-CDL variety, they look like they have 20,000 to 30,000 pounds ratings.

As for brakes, other than the fact that the standard deuce has a single system setup which I would never trust, I don't see the braking system capacity being a problem. My reading says that the braking systems are the most over capacity of all the truck systems.

Anyways, lack of engine power and over the rated towing capacity - that's good enough for me - won't work.

Guess I'll have to change my title

 

[tm america]

yes it doesnt matter how you do it 14000+14000=28000=cdl.a 10000lbs trailer is made to haul 10000lbs total which incluces the weight of the trailer tongue weight should be 10-15% of the weight of the trailer and load on the trailer.that being said no you can not haul a deuce legally with another deuce wether its on a trailer or using a tow bar.however there is one gray area that can make it possible.if you have your deuce titled and plated as an rv you dont need a cdl even if more than 26000lbs then you will need a trailer with a 14000lbs rating and using proper tongue weight it can be done legally . and if you have air brakes on the trailer it could be done safely toothere are several semis titled as rvs that are used for hauling race cars and such that can be opperated by anyone with a valid liscense

 

[tm america]

wasnt the m275 rated to tow 17000lbs it has the same brakes as the m35 it is a little lighter being it has a fifth wheel not a bed you could pull a deuce with a m275 on a tow bar and be below 26000lbs but you still would be over the pinle tow rating for the truck which is the same weather its a m35 or m275 even though the m275 is rated to tow 17000lbs on the fifth wheel

 

[jwaller]

you are above the stated max towed load of a deuce.

 

[Josh]

Heres a deuce towing a m211. Sure it could do it. Legally with out a CDL. Dunno.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIMfyG-09OE&feature=related[/media]

 

[m16ty]

BTW - I got the information for creating this example from a forum where someone who has gone thru hundreds of DOT weight stations all over the US has done something just like this, regularly exceeding 26k total weight, while staying UNDER the CDL limits.

I'll admit I didn't look at all you figures either but you cannot go over 26k and remain under the CDL limits if you are commercial no matter how you work the numbers. The law states that you cannot exceed 26k in a commercial vehicle without CDL.

 

[roscoe]

The CGVWR can not exceed 26K. Thats total combined truck and trailer.

 

[Alredneck]

Some states have a " personal use exemption " so you dont need a CDL for moving your own stuff, or drive a RV. Look at how heavy some of the big coaches weigh and also have air brakes but still exempt. TN and NC are two states with this EXEMPTION and there may be more.

 

[StreetbikeDepot]

Same for us in OK, you only need a CDL if your driving a commercial vehicle, your truck is private use, check your laws, your probably puting too much thought into this for nothing.

I believe that most states are that way, how do you think all these old timers are crusing around the nation in pusher coaches. Their not getting their CDL to do it, because its private use.

I have have been pulled over by a highway patrol while towing a M109 behind a M818 for no tail lights and I asked him specifically while I was in the car about the laws regarding the need for a CDL. He had a simple answer........do you own those? YES Are you hauling them for hire? NO...then you don't need a CDL That even goes for someone driving for you, in my case I had another M109 towing a M1009 with me, the driver had no CDL and since they where my personal trucks he didn't need a CDL either. But if I was pulling them for business use we both would have needed them.

He gave me a ticket for no tailights and sent me down the road.

 

[rosco]

I have a CDL! If I had a trailer with a weight rating capable of hauling a deuce, I go for it! Sometimes we go slow, but it would be a "go"! In fact, I have pulled far more weight then that, in the old days, with a M211 gasser, up the AlCan!
BUT...... Any one of those Chicken Coop Guys can put you "out of service", if they don't like the looks of your load. I think the overhang, over the hitch will provide that excuse. A ball hitch, will chinch it. Plus, they will probably (if you don't pass their attitude test), give you an "unsafe vehicle" citation! IF, that comes to pass, surely they will use also a little creative reasoning, to drag in the lack of the CDL/medical certificate. All this time, your along side the road somewhere....... Anyway, Good Luck, but you have to be safe FIRST.

Lee in Alaska

 

[ElkHunter61523]

Be a darned site easier to get a tow bar. Headaches would be smaller also.

 

[sirmrtow]

can i see pics of the crash your going to have and or the ticket and impound fees when the dot gets done with you

 

[CARNAC]

I hate math.

Anything over 2+ 2 = 5 is beyond me. LOL

 

[Stan Leschert]

Anything is possible. Not many are advisable. This is one to reconsider. Under combat conditions, you do what you have to. Under peace time rules....NOPE. Hire a bigger rig. Or a better lawyer and be prepared to pay when Oh my....what just happened in the mirrors... Don't worry, the suggested setup will get you to the scene of the accident.

 

[Recovry4x4]

Steering will certainly be an issue with the first idea. 7000# pushing down on a pintle located nearly 6' behind the tandem centerline will unload thousands of pounds off the front axle. It will also cause the truck to puch straight on hard surfaces since the tandems are locked together. Take the trailer out of the equasion and consider this. I have an M108 deuce crane. I have, in the past and as an experiment, hooked up the back of my M275A2 to the boom and attached a towbar to the pintle. Carrying the weight of the 275 that far behind the tandems unloaded so much weight from the front axle, is simply wouldn't turn. As far as the trailer weight, I don't think the DOT folks will ignore the GVWR of the trailer. If your trailer has a GVWR of 12,000# it should require a CDL. With that said, many f the DOT guys I work with ask the very question you posted in deciding if a CDL is required. Are you in commerce? The M275A2 is rated for towing 17,000# on the 5th wheel off road and 30,000# on road. I'll be the first to tell you, 30,000# is too much for all but spotting trailers. If you did decide to do this off the 5th wheel, you would basically have a lowboy type of setup. If one were to put this much thought into obtaining a CDL instead of trying to skirt it, you would have some extra time to play.