Cleaned HH and now won’t start

[Banshee365]

Hey again fellas. I wanted to bounce something off of y’all. I had to have all of our possessions off our old property, including the deuce. I had algae all in the fuel system and it hadn’t run in a couple years. After replacing the tank and all of the filters, I removed the shutoff cover to check the action of the control rod. I found the shutoff block to be nearly totally seized to the plunger.

I proceeded to line up the red gear tooth, remove the shutoff lever, and remove the HH. I disassembled it complexity and cleaned it all up. I didn’t have to lap anything. I just cleaned, lubed and reassembled and it went back together very nice and smooth.

i dropped the head back into the IP with the red tooth lined up exactly where it was when I pulled it and hooked it all back up. I ran fresh fuel from the HH feed line into a bottle and hooked it up. It will not fire on any cylinders on fuel. It will light off with ether but will never catch on fuel. I cracked the injector lines and see the proper firing order squirting from the injector line nuts so I know it’s getting fuel.

I had posted on the Facebook group to see what some had to say on there. A couple said I’m probably 180 out. But, I don’t understand the HH to work that way. There is one red tooth and one rotating assembly within the HH.

Any thoughts? The buyer of our property is being easy about letting me work on the truck to get it out past or closing a couple of days ago but I’ve gotta get it out of there.

Thanks all!

 

[Floridianson]

You ran fresh fuel from a bottle and hooked it up? Need flow from the in tank pump first at this point. Then see where your at. As for the 180* out yes you are correct take the head out on mark put it back in on mark your good.

 

[gimpyrobb]

If the hyd head is 180 out of phase, your just sending fuel to the wrong cyls. No big deal, pull it up and rotate it once, bolt back in place, good to go.

 

[Banshee365]

I ran fuel from the tank into a bottle to collect it, that’s all. Just to make sure it’s flowing properly.

Gimpy, I’m confused on how the HH can be 180 out with one red tooth and one shaft? It would seem to me that if the red tooth is lined up with the arrow in the housing that the holes in the plunger are in the same position as if you turn the heat one revolution and reinstall. What am I missing?

 

[NY Tom]

I had to search around like crazy on this one when I had a similar problem. Most likely your HH is correct based on what you are saying you did. I was unsure and barred the engine around looking thru the oil fill hole to find TDC on #1. Then the red tooth is supposed to be one off to the rear or something like that. Can't remember which valve is supposed to be open but search here and you may find it.

If you have fuel coming to the HH and injector lines when you crack them is it possible your injectors are plugged with gunk? Maybe if she sat long enough?

To me it sounds like you checked most items.

 

[gimpyrobb]

Whichever gear drives the injection pump, it spins twice for every rotation of the motor. Sometimes you just need to accept things that are hard to understand. You can try what was posted about getting the pump in phase with the motor or you can ignore it. Its only time and effort. I've had Hyd Heads out too and needed to spin it over. I wish I could remember the TM it was found in.

 

[Floridianson]

If you line up the red tooth with the head pointer you can remove the head and put it back the same way, pointer red tooth it will not be 180* out. The only way to get 180* is to not be on TDC compression stroke and remove the IP. Then install the IP correctly but you are not on TDC compression stroke. When we install the IP the advance unit window the line will not quite be on the mark but the Head scribe / red mark is dead on. Then after we install the IP drive gear we rotate the center bolt inside of the drive gear. When the advance unit window line is on is mark the head should be one tooth off to the rear then we tighten the three bolts that hold on the drive gear to IP. AS said if your not on TDC compression stroke you will be 180* out. When done right the IP bolt holes should look like the pic so we can rotate the IP to the correct timing and tighten down the three bolts on the gear.

 

[NY Tom]

This is what I was looking for here - Floridianson posted it elsewhere just a little while ago in another thread. Exactly what I had read on some other thread probably posted by the same knowledgeable fellow:

There are something you are going to have to check but myself start with checking the timing. Remove the oil fill cap and it helps to have two people but rotate the motor over till you can see the #2 exhaust valve just start to open. This will be the valve that when you look down the oil fill hole and look for the valve that is just forward of the oil fill hole. When it starts to drop then the balancer lines should be coming up. Find the correct balancer line and line it up to the pointer on the block. Now remove the four bolts from the advance window cover and the mark and line should be on the money. Now look at the head scribe/ red paint mark and it should be one tooth off to the rear. If timing is correct then we can move on to the next look sea problem.

 

[Floridianson]

Yea his problem is not timing as he just removed the head and cleaned it. The other thread he said he removed the whole IP.

 

[dmetalmiki]

I seem to remember you have the the LDS engine?...IF you do they (Most LDS pumps) will NOT pump properly without the in tank pump supplying positive pressure.

If I turn off the in tank pump on our deuces with LDT motors (Which we have always done to save pump wear),they just keep running fine.
Do the same on the wrecker or 5 ton engines, Even at speed, they slow down and eventually ( Always) stop!.
If not, Then Bleed bleed and bleed again, WITH the in tank pump running.
Hope this helps.

 

[Floridianson]

Ocala is big where are you and how far does the Deuce need to go. I have tow bar and 2 trucks big enough to handle the Deuce well three trucks but we don't need the 816 to move a Deuce.

 

[Banshee365]

I fixed it. I will post the solution this evening when I get to a computer.

 

[Banshee365]

Alright boys. Here goes. The plunger was 180 out. And no, that is NOT the same thing that about 75% of people have been telling me is my issue from the FB group and even a few here. It's impossible for the HH to be 180 out of the red tooth is aligned with the arrow in the casting. It's just impossible. The only thing that can be 180 out on this engine is the IP itself. The HH is a single gear driving a single shaft. It does not have a 2:1 gear ratio between the two that would allow it to be installed 180 out with the red mark lined up. If you remove your HH with the red mark aligned, turn it 360 degrees and reinstall without turning the engine/IP you've done nothing. The plunger shaft has holes that line up with the injector passages in a certain firing order and certain times. These same holes line up with the same passages each revolution, not every two revolutions. The HH turns once per two crank revolutions and once per camshaft revolution. Saying that the HH is 180 out and just needs to be removed, spun one revolution, and reinstalled is like saying to remove a crankshaft timing sprocket, spin it once, reinstall and expect the timing to be different.

To be clear, I never removed my IP. I may have misspoke in a previous thread possibly. I also didn't turn the engine/IP between removing and installing the HH. I had a feeling that I knew what happened. Even though I know I had made a mental note and effort to not put it back together properly. Even know I understand that it's impossible for a HH to be installed 180 out, it sure acted like the timing was 180 out. Not a single cylinder was hitting and I could hear the injectors popping off while the wife (soldier B) was cranking. It had everything it needed.

While it's impossible to install a HH into the IP 180 out, it is possible to assemble the HH 180 out. That is what I did. I knew full well that there is a curved side of the butterfly key that corresponds with the curved part of the plunger shaft. I knew that it was possible to install it backwards. I knew this and still did it somehow. It was late at night on the kitchen counter and I slipped. Today, I pulled the HH, removed the steel shield over the gear, removed the gear/plunger assembly and immediately looked at the butterfly/plunger orientation. Sure enough, I could see the curved side of the butterfly keys hole with the flat side of the plunger in it and vise versa. I remove the keepers, spring, turned the plunger shaft a half turn, reinstalled and it started right up after several seconds of cranking to clear the air in the injector lines that accumulated from the R&R.

I hope this can help someone in the future. We all know that the plunger can be installed into the butterfly key backwards but I'm the only dumbass who's actually done it and reinstalled the HH.

 

[Floridianson]

Glad you found it not a dumbass. At my age now I have to take pictures of everything that has small parts and peices so I do not mess up on put things back together. That one would have never made the guess what my problem is guess list. On the lighter side there have been some that have done worse on putting the fuel control unit assembly together at least it did not start and go to WOT.