Deuce Starter Question

[AZDeuce]

Gentlemen:

I have manuals but they are still packed away from when I moved, so I got a question(s).

For the last year or so occasionally my Deuce wouldn't start, it would just "click." I'd manipulate the starter button and it would start, so I always figured it was the start button.

But the other day it wouldn't start, just click, and then it wouldn't even do that. So I made a small "by-pass" wire with two male ends, pulled the plug from the starter button, I then turned on the power switch.

I then inserted one end of my by-pass wire into one side of the plug, then touched the other side and got a click, but no start.

The point of that exercise was to determine if the switch was bad, or the starter. I think I eliminated the switch.

So.........does this mean the whole starter is bad, or is there a solenoid on top that I can replace, and if so where can I get one?

Thanks in advance.

 

[bullfrog1234]

Check your batteries. (cell check machine). Ensure the ground wires are clean and tight. The push button start could be bad. I had ran into a problem like this and it came out to be my batteries.

 

[Motorcar]

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/deuce/67195-solenoid-m35a3.html I think I did this right...if you have eliminated bad connections at the battery, starter, relay and ground cables, then the soleniod is a common problem. The two contacts and disc get pitted just from use over years. The link should show you how to do the fix, same principal A2/A3 trucks. Mine has been fine since I did it, be careful...that starter is heavy!

 

[M35A2-AZ]

AZDeuse, There is a copper disk in the solenoid that needs to be turn over or resurfaced.
My truck was doing the same thing and it turned out to be the solenoid disk.

If you get the disk out and both sides are bad, just let me know and I will resurface it for you.

 

[Bob USNR]

If your test at the starter was from the batt wire (large cable) to the small wire (from the starter button) you have done the same test both times from opposite ends of the same wires.

If the "click" is conspicuously from the starter itself it still may not be a bad starter.
Always start your electrical testing with "known good" charged batteries. If the batteries are low on charge this exact symptom can happen.

When you press the starter button do you get the click when you push it AND when you release it? This could be just low battery charge.

Press the starter button and hold it for 10 to 20 seconds.
BE VERY CAREFUL! They can get hot enough to burn your skin in a very short time if conditions are just right.
Then go to the batteries and check all connections to see if any have gotten hot.
IF one of them is hot that connection needs cleaning. The hot one is the problem! Don't forget to check ALL of them and the ground connection at the chassis.
There are about 30 to 35 connections in the battery box alone.

The batteries can act like "low charge" if there is a failure inside the batteries themselves.


A somewhat simpler method to generally isolate a problem like this is attach a volt meter to the large starter cable, at the starter, and the "block" (It should show about 26vdc) and see if the voltage drops more than 2-4 volts when you try to run the starter.
If any of the batteries or any cable connections are defective the voltage will drop 10vdc or even 20 volts the moment the button is pushed.
If the voltage stays up the starter is most likely defective.
If you know a good mechanic the parts are fairly cheap and easy to install.
I have seen these starters offered for $125.00, no core.

If you have to remove the starter, remember these things weigh like 50lbs. Don't get your finger caught between it and anything else. That is apt to hurt.

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[topo]

I had one battery go bad and was only getting 12 volts in stead of 24 volts check each battery separately

 

[doghead]

There is a relay(on the engine block) and a solenoid on the starter, that could cause your issue.

You need to use a meter and test for voltage along the starting circuit, to find the problem.

 

[AZDeuce]

OK, thanks for the tips.......where is the starter relay?

 

[RAYZER]

OK, thanks for the tips.......where is the starter relay?

on the starter.

 

[AZDeuce]

Just went out before dark and ran my multi-meter on the batteries one was 12.8V, the other 12.9V, I had no soldier "B" to test it under a load.

Turned on the ignition (for both tests actually) and held the button down for 15 seconds and it never got hot, I ran around and touched all 4 battery terminals and they were not hot either.

So at this point I'm thinking the washer M35A2-AZ, was talking about may be the problem. A fun project for Monday. NOT!

 

[RAYZER]

The easy way to remove the starter is to first take the air cleaner housing off,after disconnecting every thing ,pull it out from the top with a strap wraped aeound it.

 

[AZDeuce]

Rayzer

Thanks for that "heads up"........I was wondering how to get that beast out of there.

 

[AZDeuce]

UPDATE: 09-10-11

This morning pulled the starter, yes I pulled the air cleaner, and the blow-by pipe, but left the J pipe intact, after disconnecting the batteries, and wires at the starter, we let the starter down with a rope, and slipped it forward and down. The brass alloy disc had pitting on both sides. I should have contacted M35A2-AZ out in Tonopah about 20 some miles West straight down I-10, as he said he'd turn it for me, but I opted to try to fix it on my own.

I got some evil 80 grit paper laid it on the bed of the Deuce and started working the disc on both sides, I had gotten most of the pits out, so I went to 120 grit and "polished" it up a bit to remove all the lines from the 80 grit. There was still a few pits on both sides, but for the most part they were gone, and the few that still showed were about the size of a pin head or less.

Happy with our sanding job I got the starter back together, and my friend Marc. and I, got her hoisted back in the truck from the top. We got her all bolted in and all the wires secured, then I hooked the batteries back up while Marc watched for the appearance of any "magic smoke" or arcs. Everything checked out ok so before reinstalling the air cleaner, and blow-by pipe, we decided to see if it worked.

I turned on the ignition, and hit the sarter buton and she started right up.......COOL! We then shut er off, and reinstalled the blow-by pipe, and air cleaner. We secured our tools, patted ourselves on the back, and then I went to move the truck back to it's usual parking spot. I hit the starter and....

.....CLICK!

What in the World!!??

I played with the wires/plug to the back of the starter button, but no joy, finally when I pushed on the starter button from an angle it started up.....WHEW!

BUT.......my problem still isn't fixed, as this is what it was doing before.

Sooooooo.......if the disc isn't the problem, and I'm ASSUMING the push button isn't the problem what else is there.? I noticed the relay on the side of the block just above the starter could this be the culprit?

For now I got her parked where I can roll start her.......but this is not the solution, as there may be no place to roll start at my destination.

 

[doghead]

I noticed the relay on the side of the block just above the starter could this be the culprit?

from post # 7

There is a relay(on the engine block) and a solenoid on the starter, that could cause your issue

If you have a volt meter, you need to find where the voltage stops, to find your problem. (like I said in post 7)

 

[phil2968]

Like Doghead posted above, there can be a solenoid that controls the solenoid on the starter. It is bolted to the engine block on most trucks. Your push button activates it and it gives battery voltage to the solenoid on the starter. Make sure yours does not have a problem. It can make the "click" that you hear.

 

[phil2968]

You beat me to DH!

 

[doghead]

Sorry Phil, I'll slow down, so you can keep up with me.

 

[phil2968]

I hope he finds it!

 

[Keith_J]

AZDeuse, There is a copper disk in the solenoid that needs to be turn over or resurfaced.
My truck was doing the same thing and it turned out to be the solenoid disk.

If you get the disk out and both sides are bad, just let me know and I will resurface it for you.

This is the case. But also check the contacts to make sure they are on the same plane. The disk can angle a bit BUT when the two contacts are not on the same plane (height), the shorter one gets more arc wear.

You can always rotate the disk but definitely check the contact height. Dress down the high one with a file, replicating the slight curvature.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y104/weisseluft/IMG_2008.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y104/weisseluft/IMG_2009.jpg

 

[M35A2-AZ]

I repalced my relay on the engine block and turned the disk and my truck still does it from time to time.
You just have to push the the start button again, two or three times and then it fire right up.

AZdeuce, glad you got her done.