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ECO Hubs Off Road on our M1078A1

hike

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While refurbishing our 2003 M1078A1 to prepare for our off road habitat our friend, Ted Wiborn, (@expeditionteamwiborn), came to visit us in the Texas hill country.

Ted and I have had the opportunity to off road and hike a few times in Utah to some amazing places, so we decided to test the M1078 off road at Hidden Falls Adventure Park in Marble Falls, Texas. Our M1078 with factory 3.90's in the differentials and EcoHubs installed (converting the 2:1 planetary reduction wheel hubs to 1:1 direct drive) did not disappoint. She had plenty of power: traction and weight in the rear was all we lacked to lift ourselves (without adding a rock) over the ledges. The greatest slope we measured had a 26° pitch; I wish we had checked the roll when we lifted that passenger rear tire (1'40"), the seat creased well; no exact measurements at the ledges though the fuel tank cleared them all by a bit; we did get some dirt on the front differential somewhere along the way. Ted shot our video work plus a photo or two from me, and 'Mr. Business' who keeps Ted mostly out of trouble. Too much fun on a beautiful January hill country day—

Video on You2b

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Mullaney

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While refurbishing our 2003 M1078A1 to prepare for our off road habitat our friend, Ted Wiborn, (@expeditionteamwiborn), came to visit us in the Texas hill country.

Ted and I have had the opportunity to off road and hike a few times in Utah to some amazing places, so we decided to test the M1078 off road at Hidden Falls Adventure Park in Marble Falls, Texas. This M1078 with factory 3.90's in the differentials and EcoHubs installed (converting the 2:1 planetary reduction wheel hubs to 1:1 direct drive) did not disappoint. She had plenty of power: traction and weight in the rear was all we lacked to lift ourselves (without adding a rock) over the ledges. The greatest slope we measured had a 26° pitch; I wish we had checked the roll when we lifted that passenger rear tire (1'40"), the seat creased well; no exact measurements at the ledges though the fuel tank cleared them all by a bit; we did get some dirt on the front differential somewhere along the way. Ted shot our video work plus a photo or two from me, and 'Mr. Business' who keeps Ted mostly out of trouble. Too much fun on a beautiful January hill country day—

Video on You2b

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Cute puppy!
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Keith Knight

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Great video! Would loved to seen two trucks one with eco hubs and one with highway/ 3.07 gears. I’m curious if the 3.07 would require less braking while negotiating the down hill areas. All that on and off braking worries me with air brakes getting too low of pressure causing problems. I do like seeing the capabilities of these trucks. Pretty awesome. How did you air pressure hold up while doing all that braking?
 

hike

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Great video! Would loved to seen two trucks one with eco hubs and one with highway/ 3.07 gears. I’m curious if the 3.07 would require less braking while negotiating the down hill areas. All that on and off braking worries me with air brakes getting too low of pressure causing problems. I do like seeing the capabilities of these trucks. Pretty awesome. How did you air pressure hold up while doing all that braking?
The crawl ratio for the 3.07's is better in first gear, though the braking is really only an issue when dropping off ledges.

crawl-ratios-lmtv.jpg

Even in our jeeps which have first 4L crawl ratios of 87:1 we are on the brakes dropping off the ledges.

Here is a short video coming out from a camp about 40 km down John's Canyon Road in the Cedar Mesa area of Southern Utah in my Jeep Wrangler pulling the Hiker trailer, another one climbing. The roads and paths I have planned for the M1078A1 with the habitat will be challenging, though likely not as challenging as Hidden Falls Adventure Park.

I took Ted to Hidden Falls because he off roads a lot, he and his wife travel months at a time and wheeling days in a row. We talked about the crawl ratios noting that it might reduce the braking some on steep stretches between ledges, though not much. More significant for my use case: build out habitat for extended travels flat towing the JLUR Wrangler behind, it would be unusual to have the habitat on a path as technical as in the Hidden Falls video. We would likely camp nearby and use our Jeep to go exploring.

About the air brakes:
1— While I was driving I had the buzzer sound breifly on a ledge after ledge after ledge downhill. Moving slowly between ledges brought the pressure right up. On we went;
2— Ted set the alarm off more times and kept going. She never dropped into the red. Brakes worked the whole descent and tanks refilled as we climbed up the next set, pressure quickly back to 120+#;
3— This was both Ted and my first time driving such a vehicle off road. The break over points are completely different being you are sitting at the front edge of the wheels and the air brakes are touchy near their release point compared to our jeeps. Think about in traffic when you are edging up to a limit line: do you stop smoothly or suddenly? With more practice I think I will learn to edge up to the break overs more smoothly and learn to better 'walk' the tires down one at a time like we do in our jeeps.

Our day off roading proved the use case, for me (plenty of capability), we had fun driving the LMTV, and spending a beautiful January day outside—
 
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Keith Knight

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Great info, I also am a Jeep rock crawler old school, started back in 1995. Don’t care to do the rock bouncing racing up everything. Like you I have plenty of seat time in the jeep with 4:1 transfer case and 4:88 gears. I wish I would’ve got some seat time in my LMTV before I converted into the expedition vehicle. But watching your video gives me some confidence.
 

Ronmar

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Great video! Would loved to seen two trucks one with eco hubs and one with highway/ 3.07 gears. I’m curious if the 3.07 would require less braking while negotiating the down hill areas. All that on and off braking worries me with air brakes getting too low of pressure causing problems. I do like seeing the capabilities of these trucks. Pretty awesome. How did you air pressure hold up while doing all that braking?
This is an automatic transmission. Under those type downhill situations, it is ALL braking as the engine offers NO braking force. The crawl ratios also do not really apply to automatic transmissions as under low speed conditions, we are not hard coupled to the transmission. Ours are only hard coupled to the transmission in 3rd and above. These are not rock crawlers!

you only really expell air from the brake system when you release the brakes. So full pedal releases are to be avoided in these situations, you lift the pedal just enough to allow forward movement, and ride it there, adding pressure as necessary to slow. Not fully releasing the pedal conserves air. Unfortunately precise pedal control is not always easy in a vehicle rocking and rolling down a steep stepped incline…:)
 
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hike

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@Ronmar thank you for confirming the braking air release. That is what I thought I noticed between Ted and I driving: He tap, tap, tapped the brakes while I tried to modulate them. It was difficult, though with practice I think I can become much better at it.

Also, yes the Jeep in 4L is locked so that engine compression has a great affect on downhill speed. Engaging hill control adds computerized braking to control downhill speed further–
 

hike

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This video kinda justifies why the FMTVs came with the reduction hubs originally. I doubt the truck could climb those grades with 5000 lbs onboard and towing a loaded M1082 with ECOs.
That may be, though the ledges would still be quite difficult to climb up and down even with the reductions. Traction was our only issue, not power. We had plenty of power.

Our use case will include removing the bed (-2,800#) adding a torsion free frame and habitat (+4,000# loaded); adding only 1,200# or so above factory tare; and towing a Jeep JLUR Wrangler (+6,500# loaded). When we hit more technical sections prior to reaching camp, we will drop and drive the Jeep on in.

If our past camping patterns continue we won't be driving the habitat on trails as technical as the Hidden Falls trials shown in the video. The M1078A1 with ECO Hubs should be more than capable for our planned uses. I wouldn't use ECO Hubs for deep water rescue. Though I'll cross a 30" river, once we check river bottom. Off road fire tender with a 700 gallon tank? Probably, not. But for a habitat at half the weight capacity, all day long–
 
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Ronmar

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This video kinda justifies why the FMTVs came with the reduction hubs originally. I doubt the truck could climb those grades with 5000 lbs onboard and towing a loaded M1082 with ECOs.
Probably not towing anything, but the math says still plenty capable... A 1078 with 5K onboard would weigh in around 21,500#?

With Ecos(3.9:1), a 3126B @~800ft/lb, at peak torque, should be able to deliver ~17,000# of thrust from the tires. It should be able to pull 24,000# up ~45degrees of slope. I think you will still run out of traction offroad before you run out of torque...

This of course woukd be doubly true with 2:1 at the hub(7.8:1 axles)...
 

GeneralDisorder

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Probably not towing anything, but the math says still plenty capable... A 1078 with 5K onboard would weigh in around 21,500#?

With Ecos(3.9:1), a 3126B @~800ft/lb, at peak torque, should be able to deliver ~17,000# of thrust from the tires. It should be able to pull 24,000# up ~45degrees of slope. I think you will still run out of traction offroad before you run out of torque...

This of course woukd be doubly true with 2:1 at the hub(7.8:1 axles)...
All of the 3126 and C7 maps are 860 ft/lbs of torque. The C7 370 HP map is 931 ft/lbs

You will definitely run out of traction first. I don't believe the trucks are even rated for a 45 degree slope - probably would encounter engine lubrication problems approaching those kinds of angles.
 

Ronmar

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All of the 3126 and C7 maps are 860 ft/lbs of torque. The C7 370 HP map is 931 ft/lbs

You will definitely run out of traction first. I don't believe the trucks are even rated for a 45 degree slope - probably would encounter engine lubrication problems approaching those kinds of angles.
Yea even my piddly little 3116 should be able to schlep 20K up ~41 deg... Again, available traction notwithstanding...
 

hike

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I agree. Even running the factory CTIS on SAND in MODE we never lacked for power/torque; we ran out of traction over and over. Watch the video, traction is what slowed us down on climbing the ledges. Adding a rock to reduce the 90º vertical heights, we climbed right up. We did not find anything we could not actually climb. While the steepest we measured was 26º it was so long and so easy I wish I had videoed it. Though it was anti-climatic and over too fast.

I should have posted a video of us cruising on the highway at 65mph in 6th gear at under 1,800rpm on the way there and back. We never went into 7th on the state and county roads. ECO Hubs work and these trucks are beasts–
 

Ronmar

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The sidewall bulge really shows the lack of weight in the back. With different axle weights, the same applied tire pressure yields very different tire footprints/tire bulge.

Balance Grasshopper…:)
 
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NDT

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All of the 3126 and C7 maps are 860 ft/lbs of torque. The C7 370 HP map is 931 ft/lbs

You will definitely run out of traction first. I don't believe the trucks are even rated for a 45 degree slope - probably would encounter engine lubrication problems approaching those kinds of angles.
Oh you would be amazed at the test requirements that each truck had to go though at Sealy. The QC guy told me there could be no drips or leaks of any type after the test course was run.
 

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hike

—realizing each day
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The sidewall bulge really shows the lack of weight in the back. With different axle weights, the same applied tire pressure yields very different tire footprints/tire bulge.

Balance Grasshopper…:)
Absolutely. We noticed that too. That may be a reason to move the potable water toward the rear rather than keeping it close to the original center of mass—
 

coachgeo

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Absolutely. We noticed that too. That may be a reason to move the potable water toward the rear rather than keeping it close to the original center of mass—
for beast this large... think you need to front heavy compared to rear....... so not 50/50 front to rear... maybe 60/40, or 55/45 that way when climbing the weight shifts from those to 50/50 due to gravity rear loading. Would think starting at 50/50 and then on up climbs moving it to 40/60 would or worse would create little more pucker. Granted you still gotta go back down. But weight ratio is a discussion for another topic maybe (if there is not one already*).

* Update- thought I remembered their being a thread.. Feel stupid now that I realize it was thread I started LOL.. getting old

 
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hike

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It looks like the M1079's fully loaded are 53%/47%. As we start moving the habitat plan from 2D to 3D shooting to distribute the weight similar to an M1079 sounds like the plan. All I know for sure now is that with an empty bed we were front heavy, not balanced. Not good off road–
 
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