Gen sets MEP need advice

[Coug]

Below is just something to consider if you plan to use the generator/ECU as a heat source.

I will add to this though, using a diesel generator to produce electric heat is extremely wasteful.
The generator is burning fuel, which produces heat, that is discarded, to create rotational force.
The gen head is taking that rotational force to create electricity, which also produces heat in the process, and that is discarded.
The electricity then goes over to the ECU where it turns the blower motor, producing heat which is usually discarded as the blower motor itself isn't always in the airflow path.


Were you in he Military? Never in a life time, would anyone even think about: I will add to this though, using a diesel generator to produce electric heat is extremely wasteful.

yeah, I was, for 4 years.
Supposed to be an office job (15P, Aviation Operations Specialist) but I hated paperwork and went in after failing their color vision test so limited number of jobs I was allowed to do.

Mostly I took care of our equipment. In South Korea where it's a 1 year rotation and I was there for 3.5 years, I was about the only one who knew our stuff.
Was also buddies with the only DRASH contractor in Eastern Asia at the time, a retired motorpool NCO. Had him on speed dial and had to use him multiple times to get stuff fixed even though he gave me full permission to do my own repairs on equipment still under warranty.

Nobody in the military considers efficiency when burning fuel, as having a fleet of HEMTT tankers for the helicopters meant we always had more JP-8 than we would ever need available to us (Chinook and Blackhawk unit)

I consider it a lot in the civilian world because I do have off grid customers and my own personal equipment, along with buddies and their personal equipment, that we could just about set up our own battalion command post with all the tents, trucks, generators, ECUs, etc.

Mostly though, I'm poor. I do seriously consider how much it's going to cost me if we decide to go do a snow camp for a week and what that will end up costing, especially with diesel being double the price it was 2 years ago.

 

[Guyfang]

In the 70's, I worked on a Hawk Missile site. Monday I picked up 2400 gallons of fuel. Wednesday, I picked up 1200 gallons of fuel. Friday, I picked up 2400 gallons of fuel. If we went to the field, it was a bit more.

 

[Evvy Fesler]

This is a good question. We all, (me too) sit around using terms that most folks have no idea about.

GFCI, Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter. Indeed, I would look it up, but the short simple story is, "A device that measures how many Amps goes into a circuit, and how many comes back out on the Neutral. When the figures do not match, it cuts the circuit off."

Why? Well if you are standing there with a broken wire in hand, and the voltage is going through you to ground, you are going to maybe die. The GFCI is there to protect your life. I am sure all of you can explain it much better then me. But the question was asked, and telling someone to Google it, is not the answer.

Good answer! My apologies for not spelling this acronym out. I can build on this answer and say that in the US, they are calibrated to sense a .005 amp (5 milliamps) difference between hot and neutral (black and white wires) or L0 and L1 for an example having to do with our gen sets. L0 and L2 would be another combination and so it goes for L0 and L3. I believe the convenience outlet is also protected by a GFCI. The 5 milliamps is the minimum amount of current that can cause cardiac arrest. As we get older the risk of cardiac arrest or damage is greater. Once you reach 50 (or maybe it's 60) EMTs will automatically bring you to a hospital to be checked out - even if you're coherent and able to walk in a straight line. These gen sets can put out upwards of 50+ amps. That's way above cardiac arrest current. Never work in a damp area, like a campsite, even if the earth is starved by drought, without your appliances, equipment and lighting circuits protected by a GFCI device. And if I didn't say it before, read the operators TM and mind your grounding.

 

[jsdirtngravel.tyler@gmail]

yeah, I was, for 4 years.
Supposed to be an office job (15P, Aviation Operations Specialist) but I hated paperwork and went in after failing their color vision test so limited number of jobs I was allowed to do.

Mostly I took care of our equipment. In South Korea where it's a 1 year rotation and I was there for 3.5 years, I was about the only one who knew our stuff.
Was also buddies with the only DRASH contractor in Eastern Asia at the time, a retired motorpool NCO. Had him on speed dial and had to use him multiple times to get stuff fixed even though he gave me full permission to do my own repairs on equipment still under warranty.

Nobody in the military considers efficiency when burning fuel, as having a fleet of HEMTT tankers for the helicopters meant we always had more JP-8 than we would ever need available to us (Chinook and Blackhawk unit)

I consider it a lot in the civilian world because I do have off grid customers and my own personal equipment, along with buddies and their personal equipment, that we could just about set up our own battalion command post with all the tents, trucks, generators, ECUs, etc.

Mostly though, I'm poor. I do seriously consider how much it's going to cost me if we decide to go do a snow camp for a week and what that will end up costing, especially with diesel being double the price it was 2 years ago.

We are just weekend warriors. So burning fuel for 2 nights maybe 3 don't bother us.
It's just money and all comes out in the wash and we will make it again.
On the other hand, in today's world the stress level for us is beyond high, so we just want to enjoy life sometimes instead of worrying all the time. I was 3 years in the Texas Guard so yes we enjoy setting up our own little base camp for hiking and stuff. We just like It. It's fun

 

[robertsears1]

To the point about waste in the military, while instructing at pilot training at the end of my time, one instructor who flew KC135s said he knew for a fact that he had personally dumped over 1 million pounds of fuel into the atmosphere Over his career.

If you end up looking for a MEP 804 series unit, I would recommend the B model with the Yanmar turbo. I have put on about 800 hours running the FDECU-5 (5 ton heat/AC pump) which pulls 60/phase @ 208v. It has a world of capacitors to help but still pulls hard when the compressor kicks in. On my 804A, it will kick out a short circuit light 80% of the time on the same FDECU. Possibly, something is out of adjustment but I got that unit with only 46 hours and it looked brand new and it runs other 3 phase equipment fine. I have found the 804B is more robust in my experience.

Robert

 

[jsdirtngravel.tyler@gmail]

Just going to throw my $.02 in here. According to the spec sheet Coug put up that HVAC unit has Soft-Start capability, that means startup surge should be almost non-existent. (Emphasis on should)
According to your first post all your other loads will be "tv, laptops, cell phones, radios and chargers".
Unless you have some monster high powered transmission radio (like a CB with a 200w kicker) all of those should be able to be powered by the convenience outlet easily.
Depending on the size the TV is probably 50-100w, Laptop chargers 30-75w, Cell Phones 10-30w, Standard FM radio 5-10w, and just "chargers" is far to broad i would need to know exactly what type. However I looked up a DeWalt 20v MAX charger and its input current is 1.5A or 180w.
But if you had 2 of each except the TV everything together is at worst 690w, which is only 5.75A from the convenience outlet, everything but the DeWalt Chargers only came to 330w btw.

If this were me (since I already have one) I would try to run this on an 803a, according to the specs of similar units the heating is done with resistive heat.
That means no surge and 1.0powerfactor.
The MEP803a can put out around 12.25kW on 3ph at 1.0pf, your max heating load is 12.18kW.
That is 99% load and adding in your other electronics that comes to 105% load. Now don't get me wrong thats alot, and if it was continuous I would defiantly suggest an 804x generator.
But you need to keep in mind you're only heating a tent so your run times on the HVAC unit should be quite short. (depending on the insulation value of the tent and the temp difference outside)
So I would wager over 50% of the time your generator is running it would be effectively idling just charging your small devices.
This is going to cause Wet Stacking fairly quickly, which is IMO the number 1 problem with these MEP's.

I would also like to note I've seen Youtube videos (I think from members of this very forum) of loading an 803a to 17kW on 3ph briefly and it handling it like a champ.

As for your concerns on running the unit in 3ph and plugging in 120v devices it's not an issue.
3ph is after all 3 individual 120v legs 120 degrees out of phase with each other. So to get 120v all you need to do is pull off 1 leg and neutral (The convenience outlet is wired to L3 and neutral)

Wow sorry this came out way longer winded than I intended...
Anyway in conclusion I personally think you should get an 803a (IF possible maybe a forum member can let you use one to see if it can handle the load before you buy?)
If you're really concerned about overloading it however just remember if you get an 804x you're going to need some way to burn the wet-stacking out of it. (Honestly you might even wet-stack the 803a a bit if the HVAC unit isnt coming on very often.)

And don't worry about your electronics loads you mentioned, they are a drop in a swimming pool compared to your HVAC load.
Now if you want to add a fridge/microwave/coffee maker thats a whole other story.

That's very good reading. Thank you for laying down on the table. As far as outlet hooking up. The chargers would be more of hand held radio chargers, cell phone chargers and stuff. I looked at one of the other HVAC units we got (no picture due to hasn't arrived yet) but another one just like it showed heating at little over 12kw. So I may have to go with an MEP 804B to be on the safe side. I can always cover the gen set under a canopy to keep from rain and such

 

[Evvy Fesler]

That's very good reading. Thank you for laying down on the table. As far as outlet hooking up. The chargers would be more of hand held radio chargers, cell phone chargers and stuff. I looked at one of the other HVAC units we got (no picture due to hasn't arrived yet) but another one just like it showed heating at little over 12kw. So I may have to go with an MEP 804B to be on the safe side. I can always cover the gen set under a canopy to keep from rain and such

Does anyone know if the Yanmar parts are as available as the Isuzu parts? The latter was a mainstay engine in many civilian applications like trucks, boats and forklifts. I don't have any information about the Yanmar.

 

[jsdirtngravel.tyler@gmail]

One of these guys on here is now freaking me out about all this (I'm gonna die) stuff about plugging in things into the gen set.
I understand he's probably talking about grounding the unit but dang. Your telling me I may die if I use the outlet to plug something up?
I mean I'm not gonna hookup wires into the 3 phase while the get set is running

 

[Evvy Fesler]

One of these guys on here is now freaking me out about all this (I'm gonna die) stuff about plugging in things into the gen set.
I understand he's probably talking about grounding the unit but dang. Your telling me I may die if I use the outlet to plug something up?
I mean I'm not gonna hookup wires into the 3 phase while the get set is running

I'm sure you respect that you're dealing with a lot of current with the main lugs, what you call the 3-phase. That generator is raw unchecked power so you have to be careful. The convenience outlet is protected by a GFCI so it's much safer. If you mind the grounding instructions the convenience outlet will be very safe. My warnings to you, if indeed it's me that you're talking about, my warnings have to do with how you distribute the power from the main lugs. Because you mentioned camping, I recommended that you treat it like any wet application. Run appropriate wire size to a load center (circuit breaker box) and make those connections with the generator turned off.

Run your circuits from the load center. Use GFCI breakers just like you would for a basement, garage, outdoor outlets, bathrooms and kitchen, in other words, just like any wet application. This may amount to a GFCI breaker that feeds a receptacle that feeds an extension cord into the tent. You could mount the load center and receptacles on plywood and stand it up with a 2x stand.

Anyway, I don't want to scare you away from your project. I just want to make sure you do as much as you can to protect yourself and the ones that you love.

IM me if you'd like more information.

Evvy-

 

[jsdirtngravel.tyler@gmail]

I'm sure you respect that you're dealing with a lot of current with the main lugs, what you call the 3-phase. That generator is raw unchecked power so you have to be careful. The convenience outlet is protected by a GFCI so it's much safer. If you mind the grounding instructions the convenience outlet will be very safe. My warnings to you, if it's me that you're talking about, have to do with how you distribute the power from the main lugs. I recommend that you treat it like any wet application. Run appropriate wire size to a load center (circuit breaker box) and make those connections with the generator off. Run your circuits from the load center. Use GFCI breakers just like you would for a basement, garage, outdoor outlets, bathrooms and kitchen. This may amount to a GFCI breaker that feeds an outlet that takes an extension cord into the tent. You could mount the load center and receptacles on plywood and stand it up with a 2x stand.

Anyway, I don't want to scare you away from your project. I just want to make sure you do as much as you can to protect yourself and the ones that you love.

IM me if you'd like more information.

Evvy-

OK that's what I thought you meant. I would never hookup anything while running. I donr even have a mep-804 yet. I accidentally bought a 813a and found out real quick how fast I made a mistake. Now I have to re make that money again for the right one

 

[FarmingSmallKubota]

So here is something for you to research, but might solve a lot of your issues and planning. If you bought a Drash Shelter trailer unit. It has a Generator with 120v outlets 3 phase outlets and onboard heat and AC, just something to research and maybe simplify your set up.

 

[Evvy Fesler]

OK that's what I thought you meant. I would never hookup anything while running. I donr even have a mep-804 yet. I accidentally bought a 813a and found out real quick how fast I made a mistake. Now I have to re make that money again for the right one

Sounds good. I'm glad you're taking your safety seriously. It really isn't hard when you think it through. By the way, I'm the one on the left in my photo. Not what one would call one of these guys!

 

[jsdirtngravel.tyler@gmail]

So here is something for you to research, but might solve a lot of your issues and planning. If you bought a Drash Shelter trailer unit. It has a Generator with 120v outlets 3 phase outlets and onboard heat and AC, just something to research and maybe simplify your set up.

Yes iv seen those. At auction you have to catch them when they're available.
#2 people want over $15k out on the market which that's out of the question.
Last one I saw sold for $3400 and I was a few seconds late placing a bid when I found it.
Plus the fact if there is one available at auction, it's roll the dice, maybe it works maybe it don't

 

[jsdirtngravel.tyler@gmail]

Sounds good. I'm glad you're taking your safety seriously. It really isn't hard when you think it through. By the way, I'm the one on the left in my photo. Not what one would call one of these guys!

Actually this brings me to a question. Is it possible to still get electrocuted while hooking up ground and terminals while machine is turned off? Stupid question but when safety is involved nothing is a stupid question

 

[FarmingSmallKubota]

Every Military surplus item that you buy unless its from a member here like myself that goes through a unit is a roll of the dice.

 

[Evvy Fesler]

Actually this brings me to a question. Is it possible to still get electrocuted while hooking up ground and terminals while machine is turned off? Stupid question but when safety is involved nothing is a stupid question

I agree that no question about safety is a stupid question. No, if the set is turned off you are safe. Of course, you don't want to be setting up during a lightning event.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[jsdirtngravel.tyler@gmail]

Every Military surplus item that you buy unless its from a member here like myself that goes through a unit is a roll of the dice.

Then I guess we need to find out who has a 804 and for what money. (Still sitting on surplus trailer)

 

[Evvy Fesler]

Then I guess we need to find out who has a 804 and for what money. (Still sitting on surplus trailer)

I can say that you don't know what your going to get. I bought an MEP-804A that had a bunch of problems. I like the challenge, It's not for the faint of heart! I'll be impressed if it makes electricity before spring gets here. Maybe you can post a wanted add in the classified forum?

 

[jsdirtngravel.tyler@gmail]

I can say that you don't know what your going to get. I bought an MEP-804A that had a bunch of problems. I like the challenge, It's not for the faint of heart! I'll be impressed if it makes electricity before spring gets here. Maybe you can post a wanted add in the classified forum?

So your saying the 804 only last a couple hundred hrs before it breaks down?
If the 803 is a better unit, but the hvac still runs little over 12kw then the 10kw is no good. I'd have to use the 15kw 804.

 

[Evvy Fesler]

So your saying the 804 only last a couple hundred hrs before it breaks down?
If the 803 is a better unit, but the hvac still runs little over 12kw then the 10kw is no good. I'd have to use the 15kw 804.

What? Oh no. They're very reliable if you take care of them. Mine was dead on arrival so I'm having to pull out the main generator and replace it.