Having issues removing hydraulic head

[Greg Schreiber]

I am a newbie to the LDT. Seems simple enough set TDC on LDT 465 mark on balancer. Check advance window for tick mark then check hydraulic head for red tooth position. Tick mark in advance window and red tooth not showing, 180 out take around another revolution. Tick mark is in advance window and red tooth visible on hydraulic head one tooth off from pointer. Hydraulic head wiggles but will not come out. I have taken engine around several more times to these settings and hydraulic head will not budge. I have tried tapping gently with a dead blow while wiggling what little bit it will wiggle but no luck. Any input from experienced members would be appreciated.

 

[rustystud]

You did remove the "Fuel control" assembly right ?

Then sometimes the "Quill Shaft Cover" can shift and catch the "plunger drive gear" . You will then have to pry out the hydraulic head. This will bend the cover, but you can bend it back once the head is off.

 

[Floridianson]

We only remove the Head when the red paint / scribe mark on the head are in line not when it is one tooth off. Also I like to rotate the engine over to find the Head mark the same direction as when the engine is running. No need to bend and "try" too repair anything.

 

[Greg Schreiber]

You did remove the "Fuel control" assembly right ?

Then sometimes the "Quill Shaft Cover" can shift and catch the "plunger drive gear" . You will then have to pry out the hydraulic head. This will bend the cover, but you can bend it back once the head is off.

Yeah I removed it and the little tit stayed on the shaft. So everything is out but the head.

 

[Greg Schreiber]

We only remove the Head when the red paint / scribe mark on the head are in line not when it is one tooth off. Also I like to rotate the engine over to find the Head mark the same direction as when the engine is running. No need to bend and "try" too repair anything.

So rotate it until the red mark lines up perfectly with the scribe mark? So long as the tick on the timing advance is in the window I should be good? Even though I'm not on tdc at the balancer?

 

[Floridianson]

Correct we really do not have to worry about balancer mark or timing advance window mark as long as the Head scribe / red mark are on the Head pointer your good to remove.

 

[Greg Schreiber]

Correct we really do not have to worry about balancer mark or timing advance window mark as long as the Head scribe / red mark are on the Head pointer your good to remove.

Good I will try and see how it goes.

 

[Greg Schreiber]

I appreciate your guys input very much.

 

[Floridianson]

The only time we must see the balancer mark on TDC point and the timing advance window mark on point is when we are checking timing. Yours looked correct as you were one tooth off so you were timed correct.

 

[Greg Schreiber]

The only time we must see the balancer mark on TDC point and the timing advance window mark on point is when we are checking timing. Yours looked correct as you were one tooth off so you were timed correct.

Well I lined up the the red tooth with pointer and still cant budge it by hand. I am only changing the head because number three port cracked. Truck was running fine, great to be honest. Just an annoying fuel leak so I know it's not a mechanical failure issue. Is it common for these to be stubborn? I have a replacement head. So I am not worried about damaging the head I am removing. My only concern is damaging the pump. Is it possible to damage the pump by applying force prying if its lined up??

 

[rustystud]

Well I lined up the the red tooth with pointer and still cant budge it by hand. I am only changing the head because number three port cracked. Truck was running fine, great to be honest. Just an annoying fuel leak so I know it's not a mechanical failure issue. Is it common for these to be stubborn? I have a replacement head. So I am not worried about damaging the head I am removing. My only concern is damaging the pump. Is it possible to damage the pump by applying force prying if its lined up??

The only reason you need to align the red mark is the "Quill Shaft" has a cover on it with a "half moon" cut-out. This cut-out allows the Hydraulic Head plunger drive gear to come free from the Quill shaft.
I've seen this cover "shift" , so even though the red mark is in the correct position the hydraulic head gear still hits the cover. I had to "pry" out the hydraulic head in this instance.
What you can do is have someone slowly turn the engine over while your gently applying upward pressure on the Hydraulic Head. I would apply pressure on the back side of the hydraulic head on the engine side. This is where the quill shaft is located.

You can see the half-moon cut-out in these pictures.

 

[Floridianson]

You have my cell.

 

[Floridianson]

"Everybody" gets schooled or spanked here on Steel Soldiers. I feel bad because I did not catch the problem. After a call and a talk I put in my .02 but it was not enough. The pump is a code G pump and has the oil port in the side of the head and the plug with oil filter. This plug / filter bottoms out on the side of the head with a form of gasket supplies oil to the lower end of the head.
He was able to get the head out with very little going wrong and little damage. Turns out the head he has to replace the old head does not have the oil port and the IP housing has to have a plug kit to stop the oil from going to the head and mixing with the fuel. So on the code G pumps you must remove the plug on the side of the IP before you try and remove the head.

 

[Greg Schreiber]

Now on to find a plug kit.

 

[Floridianson]

Yea that or a good take out IP lower unit that has bad head but does not come off a code G pump and cheap. I learned something today as I have never seen a code G pump. The bad news for anyone with a code G pump means you must find the plugging kit if you can if you have to replace the head with a head that does not have the oil port. I do not know if the code G heads can still be found in good shape. If you could I would think the gasket or what ever made the seal from the oil filter to the head would to need to be replaced / found too.That or be able to design something to block off the oil port on the head and oil port supply from the IP housing if you use a non oil port head on a code G IP lower unit.

 

[Floridianson]

All of the 15 rebuilt heads I got from GL and sold or helped replace were Ambac #HD 90100A and do not have the oil port on head, not even a hole that is plugged or oil passage on the IP housing. Greg if you could sometime get a pic of your old IP showing the oil port and if it can be plugged. If you want just TX me the pic and I will post if you want. Here is a pic of the last one I kept for myself and does not even have the hole drilled and plugged. If we look at the TM it lists two heads for the G pump and if I remember you said your old head was HD9065A. I would think the head # HD 90113A would have the oil port too. Also on the top of page they seem to list two other heads that have oil ports. HD 9070A and HD9085A. I forgot what number the new China head you said you got or if anyone knows there China head number please post it. I do not know but if the parts are hard to find or not even out there this might be a problem. If it is too much trouble to be blocking off everything or making something yourself then if I had a G pump I might be looking for a pump / IP lower unit that does not have the oiling system. That way if you can not rebuild the oil feed head or have it rebuilt right then it seems like the China heads are out there if you need them. Also again sorry I was not up to par on all the different Deuce IP's to prevent what did happen. There might be a bright side to this looking at it. If you saw the oil filter plug and thought I wonder if I remove it this might just be keeping the head from coming out. Of course it was!! Then if not seeing the oiling system on the G pumps in the TM's and what you have to do to correct with the new head you might have installed you China head. Then replacing the oil filter plug on the IP housing and China head it maybe could have leaked oil into the area between the two O rings and mixed oil with your fuel.

 

[rustystud]

"Everybody" gets schooled or spanked here on Steel Soldiers. I feel bad because I did not catch the problem. After a call and a talk I put in my .02 but it was not enough. The pump is a code G pump and has the oil port in the side of the head and the plug with oil filter. This plug / filter bottoms out on the side of the head with a form of gasket supplies oil to the lower end of the head.
He was able to get the head out with very little going wrong and little damage. Turns out the head he has to replace the old head does not have the oil port and the IP housing has to have a plug kit to stop the oil from going to the head and mixing with the fuel. So on the code G pumps you must remove the plug on the side of the IP before you try and remove the head. View attachment 787572

That would have been good to know this was a "G" code pump !
I have one on my bench at this very moment.

 

[Floridianson]

Also we some what talked about the line up of the quill shaft gear. The last head I helped to replace the head would not seat all the way down / in gage gear because it looked like the pic where the two half's of the cut out were not equal and the tip of the open quill shaft gear did not point more to the center of the tappet hole. Allen watched while I rotated the engine to the point where the two half's were just about equal and the tip of exposed quill gear pointed just about to the center. In the pic you can see they are not equal and gear in not in line. When we did this the head seated right down to the IP housing and no gap between head and IP housing. You would think the head would not come out with it just a little off but the pointer and scribe / red mark were right on.

 

[Floridianson]

That would have been good to know this was a "G" code pump !
I have one on my bench at this very moment.

Yea I saw your add in the classifieds looking to buy a code G pump not long ago. You might have just bought a new paper weight and we both learned the way to remove a code G pump head. The other thought is I do not know what you paid for it and if you really want to keep it or part it out seeing how parts might be getting hard to find. If the head was good / rebuildable and the oil filter/ plug was in good shape you could sell the other Greg your head and oil filter plug. Myself I would be looking for a IP lower unit that does not have the oiling system and would use the new China head. If he bought your parts or traded his new China head for your 9065A head and filter plug was a thought. That way he could keep his lower unit as is for a code G. Maybe his / your guys luck will hold out and Ambac will still sell the plugging kit for the IP housing or any part needed to rebuild.

 

[rustystud]

Yea I saw your add in the classifieds looking to buy a code G pump not long ago. You might have just bought a new paper weight and we both learned the way to remove a code G pump head. The other thought is I do not know what you paid for it and if you really want to keep it or part it out seeing how parts might be getting hard to find. If the head was good / rebuildable and the oil filter/ plug was in good shape you could sell the other Greg your head and oil filter plug. Myself I would be looking for a IP lower unit that does not have the oiling system and would take his new China head. If he bought your parts or traded his new China head for your 9065A head and filter plug was a thought. That way he could keep his lower unit as is for a code G. Maybe his / your guys luck will hold out and Ambac will still sell the plugging kit for the IP housing or any part needed to rebuild.

Actually I knew how to take it apart since I knew it was a Code "G" pump from the start. Going in blind like you did is a totally different thing. The whole injection pump is in pretty bad shape though. I bought it for the "bridge, cover and stop plate" parts . Also there are a few other parts that can be salvaged. There was a guy selling a so called "NOS" Code "G" pump on ebay. It was actually a rebuild and I told him so, but he wouldn't come down on his price. Maybe he still has it for sell.
I would strongly suggest to "Greg" to buy a good used pump from a member here and forget about this Code "G" pump.

Well I checked on the pump on ebay and it already sold.