M51A2 multifuel engine horsepower

[Robo McDuff]

With the Dutch DoT I am recalculating how much I legally can pull and tow with the new European fish-mouth coupling and with the European 5th wheel coupling.

It is clear from the dash ID shield, that I have an M-51 A2 w/w. It was built in 1973. AS far as I learned here, it has a LSD 1A multi-fuel engine.

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What I need now is a PAPER or a PAGE from one of the manuals or other documentation that states clearly which engine this vehicle has, and the horsepower of that engine (whatever other details are welcome as well).

Again, these guy are nice and helpful, but some things they want to see on hard paper. A manual is OK, but a reference to hear-say on a forum is not.

Manual 2320-211-10 page 1-4 (page 22 in the pdf-file) gives very useful weights and dimensions.

Table 1-4 (page 24 in the pdf-file) states the multifuel can be a Continental LDS 465-1 or an LDS 4654-1A. It does not show how to see which is which, nor does it specify horsepower and cubic content (6 liter engine, 10 liter or whatever). According the Olive-Drab M39 webpage, all M51 A2s have 1A engines with 205 hp. However, I think I saw an add for a M51A2 dump truck with 176 Hp? A reply to an earlier thread of me mentioned

Turbo elbow looks like the -1 style not the 1A.

(sorry, found that thread back after I searched and then posted this thread).

I did not find an engine tag, so where can I find proof which of the two engines (1 or 1a) is in my truck and how much horsepower it has?

As far as I can see, the actual frames of the M51 and M52 are the same, correct?

 

[doghead]

Engine model number should be on the engine data plate(above and to the rear of the alternator) rivited on the side of the engine block.

Horsepower should be listed there also.

Is your data tag missing?

205hp is not correct.

 

[Robo McDuff]

Doghead, thanks for the sheet, from which manual or paper this comes?

The sheet mentions in the third column an LDS 465-1 engine with 175 Hp, in the last column it seems the same engine (??) with 175 Hp. Any explanation for that? Maybe the one in the 3rd. column is a deuce version and the one in the last column a 5-ton?

If so, the LDS-465-1 and 1a both have 175 Hp. less than the 205 mentioned in Olive Drab. It means several tons less max pulling and max gross train weight than the 205 Hp would give me according the Dutch DoT calculations.

 

[Robo McDuff]

The SECO website has for sale an "M51A2 Continental Multi-Fuel 185 HP Diesel Engine". Do all these people just make up numbers or was there really this confusion and amount of different engines in these multi-fuel lines?

 

[gimpyrobb]

Doghead, thanks for the sheet

DH is FULL of sheet!

 

[doghead]

The different ratings for the lds465-1 may vary if it has one or two hole injectors. (I am guessing).

The chart is from the Multi Fuel engine maintence manual, TM 9-2815-210-34-2-1

 

[doghead]

Yes, they are making up their numbers.

I would go by the charts, if you want factory new specifications.

 

[doghead]

Is the engine data plate on your engine missing? Look at this thread to see what I am talking about(post # 6) . http://www.steelsoldiers.com/deuce-modification-hot-rodding/67463-ld-ldt-lds-horsepower-torque.html

 

[Robo McDuff]

The Dutch DoT has a few rules and formula's for calculating Gross Train Vehicle Weight limits. They always use the lowest number that comes up. Being a 6x6 according the Dutch law, that is no limiting factor. The new fish mouth and fifth wheel coupling are specified for weights way beyond any limit of these trucks (they can pull over 60 respectively 100 tons). So they will use the horsepower as limiting factor.

The formula is that the gross train vehicle is the engine power in Kilowatts/0.00368 Kw/kg. For a LDS-1A or 1 with 175 HP, it comes out to following. 175 Hp is 129 Kw. Divided by 0.00368 Kw/kg that comes out to 35 tons or 77,000 lbs Total Train Weight. With an empty vehicle weight of around 10 ton, I could pull a trailer of 25 ton ( a wee bit more than the 13 tons specified for this truck).

I want to be able that, when empty in "dump truck mode", I can pull a decent trailer with a 10-ton shovel on it. So say about 14 to 16 ton trailer weight. Even with the 175 Hp, that would fit without problem, at least according the rules.

In "tractor mode", they have to recalculate what is possible with a different formula, but it will be more than the 25 tons specified for the M52A2.

 

[Squirt-Truck]

As Doghead said, look for the engine plate behind and above the alternator.

Just curious why you want to be listed to pull more than the listed 30,000# trailer weight?

The truck fully loaded and towing has a listed GCVW of 71986# (from the 211-10 manual)
When you are at these weights you will have ALL the weight you want to move with that truck unless you want to go REAL SLOW.

Show them the manual that lists the engine (Table 1-4 from the 211-10 manual) and use the 175 Hp numbers.

 

[Robo McDuff]

As Doghead said, look for the engine plate behind and above the alternator.

Just curious why you want to be listed to pull more than the listed 30,000# trailer weight?

The truck fully loaded and towing has a listed GCVW of 71986# (from the 211-10 manual)
When you are at these weights you will have ALL the weight you want to move with that truck unless you want to go REAL SLOW.

Show them the manual that lists the engine (Table 1-4 from the 211-10 manual) and use the 175 Hp numbers.

I'll try to find that engine tag. If there, it would solve a bit of the problem.

Why higher weight. The problem is, none of the papers show a real Gross Train Weight Rating (GTW) like the Dutch DoT wants to see. I can pull 30 000 Lbs WHEN FULLY LOADED. It does not say if I can pull more with an empty truck.

The only thing I am doing is rating up my max towed load when using an empty truck. Using their formula, I will get a GTW of 77,000 Lbs, only 5,000 Lbs more than the original number. That will be the Gross Train Weight. With an empty truck weighing in at 22,000 Lbs, I can pull a max trailer load of 55,000 Lbs. If we would just add the max towed load and max vehicle load together, I would get the 72,000 GCVW (Gross Combined Vehicle Weight) as you mentioned, but I still would not be allowed to tow anything above 30,000 Lbs according the Dutch law, even when the truck itself is empty. With this formula calculation, I can. The trailer will have its own brake system on air, so actually it will be a safer truck on the road.

Why I want this. We have a small 10 ton mobile excavator/shovel (not tracks but 8 tires) which we like to move around. Take a decent trailer for pulling it and some ramps and you are looking at anything between 3 to 5 tons as well. That would bring the total trailer weight quickly above the allowed 13 tons (30,000 lbs). In the same way, pulling a trailer with another 5-ton truck would be legally impossible as well.

When using it as a tractor, the calculation would end up the same. According the sheets, I can tow a 55000 Lbs semi, according the DoT calculation, it is 58,500 Lbs, a marginal difference. That shows to me that towing a 35,000 lbs trailer is no problem either AS LONG AS THE TRUCK ITSELF IS EMPTY.

 

[Robo McDuff]

Engine model number should be on the engine data plate(above and to the rear of the alternator) rivited on the side of the engine block.

Horsepower should be listed there also.

Is your data tag missing?

205hp is not correct.

I found two tags.

First is the engine tag, which I think says LDS 463-1. I was looking for 465, but it really seems to say 463, is that possible? Tag looked horrible, did not see where it mentiones the horsepower. It was a tag where it says on top only MULTIFUEL, and then below it is writen "model" and then in the white box behind it the LDS 463-1

What worries me more is that about 4 inches below this one, there was a second tag which included the text "overhauled".

No good camera (phone camera) and bad to see, but you can clearly see the "overhauled at" and "date". The date entered was 12 ?? 1973. My truck was built in 1973, and after 24 years only had done 100 hours, so it seems unlikely that they detroyed the opriginal enigine int he first few months. Did they put an overhauled engine in a brand new truck or what?

As you see on the picture, there was a third tag connected to the second one, or just that lower section of the second tag was completely oxidized and crumbled in my hands, impossible to read anything.

Anybody seen this before?
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[Robo McDuff]

Lds 463 - 1 update on a mystery

Update on this old thread, with new pics. I am applying for Czech papers, and now really want to know what engine I have.

It looks the original dates poured into the block itself and the ID plates on the engine state this is an 1965 engine overhauled in 1973. Supposedly, the engine is an LDS 463 -1. This is not a typo from me but the decal really seems to say four sixty three - one

1) I thought that an M51 A2 should have a multifuel LDS 1A?

2) What is a 1965 engine, overhauled in 1973, doing in a 1973 truck?

3) I could not find anything on a 463, do they exist or did the people making the decal made a mistake?

4) If a 465-1, what horsepower this engine has, the 176 HP or always the 126 HP?????

5) If this really is a 465-1 with 126 HP what is a Deuce multifuel doing in a 5-ton

5) Presuming the tags might be wrong or BS, any way how to identify the engine from other typical features?

Orignal ID tags




Overhaul tags

 

[Robo McDuff]

2) What is a 1965 engine, overhauled in 1973, doing in a 1973 truck?

Orignal ID tags
View attachment 513197 View attachment 513195 View attachment 513196



Overhaul tags
View attachment 513193 View attachment 513194

To answer my own question, probably the same year of overhauling the engine and manufacturing the truck is a coincidence. Probably the engine was stored and then put in this truck when needed, not immediately in 1973 as I first suspected.

 

[Jeepsinker]

Interesting that it does indeed appear to be 463.

 

[Robo McDuff]

Did a 463 ever existed?

The 465-1 has a 126 HP variation and a 176 HP version; not sure which one I have if I have a 465 and the 463 is a typo.