MEP002A IP - You guys that have taken 'em apart...

[LuckyDog]

SO, after following Joesco's thread: http://www.steelsoldiers.com/auxill...alling-rebuilt-ip-mep-002a-refurb-update.html

I decided to check my timing since my symptoms matched his. It was a beautiful weekend so I was able to get some time to work on the unit. It is on a M101a1 outside.

Decided to do timing method two out of the manual. I took the spring out of the delivery valve, then just swung the #1 injector line around to leak into a jar. Started the fuel pumps and turned the motor over clockwise until the flow just stopped. I was a good 15 degrees from the PC mark. I had to keep going clockwise until I saw the PC mark. I went counter clockwise until it start to flow again. Held the control valve into the Wide Open Throttle (WOT) position and went clockwise again. The flow just cut off at the same flywheel timing. Didn't matter if I was WOT or shutoff position.

Since this is my first time working on these engines, I decided to check the PC timing with the brass rod. I found the location where the rod slipped into the hole like it should. I was within 1/2 of a tick mark of PC. Slight back and forth showed that the rotor is timed correctly.

Now, I turned the fuel pumps back on, and nothing comes out the #1 injector line. Back and forth a bit, still nothing. Turn the motor over one FULL revolution clockwise, then fuel starts to come out the line. Turn it a little more, and the fuel doesn't stop, just reducess to a dribble, (Oh, yea, gotta hold in WOT) Put it in WOT, go backwards a few degrees and get a strong flow. Then forward (Clockwise) a few degrees and the flow slows then drops to 1 drop every 5 - 10 seconds. Bingo! that is the port closing indication right out of the manual. Check the flywheel marks. Awesome! I have the right button. I am within 1/2 tick BEFORE PC. Just like I would like a new button to be. (So it will wear down to PC with time). I haven't pulled the IP (Dang return line fittings) so I don't know if the button is new or not. (I like to dream, the hour meter read 7 hours when I got it home)

Now why in the world is the brass rod hole 180 degrees (1 full revolution of crank shaft) different than the flow test?

Is it possible that the drive gear can be assembled 180 degrees out?

Does this mean, like I am thinking, that the motor is 180 degrees out of time?

Is there something broke inside the IP that would cause the phenomenon of the first paragraph yet allow it to look so good later? The plunger guide like Treeguy's problem? http://www.steelsoldiers.com/auxillary-equipment/55245-my-first-mep-003-start-3.html#post641792

I used the port just above the throttle control. The line that goes to the cylinder right behind the fan and oil cooler. So, I am pretty sure I was on cylinder one.

 

[toomanytools]

Refresh us, What are your symptoms? Woudn't want to pull pump unless absolutley nessecary.

 

[Speddmon]

You have an 002a....someone installed the IP with the #1 cylinder at TDC exhaust stroke rather than compression stroke. Line up the IP with the brass rod again, and pull the valve cover off. The cylinder nearest the blower wheel needs to be at TDC compression stroke....Both valves should be closed (Play in the rockers). I'm willing to bet you'll find yours is on the exhaust stroke.

If it is, rotate the engine another 180 degrees until the PC mark lines up on the compression stroke, and pull the pump a little (Since you can't get the lines all loose, maybe you can just get it far enough away to reach behind it with a small angled pick or something to turn the face gear), reach behind it with a small tool, like an angled pick and rotate the face gear until you can slide your brass rod into the hole. Re-bolt the IP, then remove the brass rod and try it again.

 

[LuckyDog]

....someone installed the IP with the #1 cylinder at TDC exhaust stroke rather than compression stroke.

That was my first thought. Then I got to thinkin'...(Sometimes I do that too much)... If the brass rod goes in, doesn't that mean that the rotor should be lined up with the number one port? I had to rotate the motor one full revolution to get fuel out the number one port.

Can the Injector pump be assembled such that the alignment pin is 180 degrees out? i.e. With the pin in, the IP is timed for firing the #2 cyclinder?

Line up the IP with the brass rod again, and pull the valve cover off. The cylinder nearest the blower wheel needs to be at TDC compression stroke....Both valves should be closed (Play in the rockers). I'm willing to bet you'll find yours is on the exhaust stroke.

Ok, that is now on the to-do list since I no longer have confidence which TDC it is timed to.

If it is, rotate the engine another 180 degrees until the PC mark lines up on the compression stroke, and pull the pump a little (Since you can't get the lines all loose, maybe you can just get it far enough away to reach behind it with a small angled pick or something to turn the face gear), reach behind it with a small tool, like an angled pick and rotate the face gear until you can slide your brass rod into the hole. Re-bolt the IP, then remove the brass rod and try it again.

What if, (thinking again) ... I pull the pump a little (hopefully enough) with the pin left in, then rotate the motor on full rev to the PC mark? See any danger in that? Maybe easier than trying to rotate the face gear. I won't be attempting that until I am sure it is currently timed for TDC Exhaust.


The big question is... Can the IP be assembled 180 out? OR does 180 out mean something is broken inside and the IP needs to come out?
OR am I missing something obvious here?

 

[LuckyDog]

Refresh us, What are your symptoms? Woudn't want to pull pump unless absolutley nessecary.

Basically, the unit will start and run for a few seconds after letting go of the switch, then shutdown as if someone turned of the fuel.

It is not the fuel selonoid. That clanks after it stops. So, temp and oil switches appear ok (at this time).

The plunger was originally stuck. I tapped it in carefully, then used a wrench to turn the motor and bring it back out. Did this repeatedly until the plunger moved on it own. That's when she started the above symptoms.

Joesco went through a lot of trouble shooting, and I followed his lead. That is why I decided yesterday to check the timing. I just didn't get the results I expected, (and I expected several different scenarios). I just don't understand the results I got.

As an aside: I tried to run the motor on straight SeaFoam to clean the injectors and pump. Couldn't get it to run as well as straight diesel. So, drained the filtes again and re primed. Still worse. a little TS and found the #2 cylinder glow plug died. Replaced it and now back to the basic problem.
I am starting to think the engine is only running on the glow plugs and stops because they cool down.

Sorry so winded.

 

[PeterD]

...
I am starting to think the engine is only running on the glow plugs and stops because they cool down.

Sorry so winded.

Winded? Naw, clipping the quote fixes that!

Do you have the ability to check the compression? If so that would tell you whether the glow plugs are keeping it running. Personally, I doubt it, but it is possible. Eventually (two or three starts in a row) things should have gotten warm enough to not need the glow plugs.

 

[treeguy]

When it runs for the short time that it does, does is seem to run on all cylinders? This will imediatly let you know if they are good and that its not the injectors, sounds like a fuel blockage. Your over thinking the IP pump regarding the timing or IP out of time with itself unless you "drive washer" dog house/bread loaf hole is warn so the pulsating shaft does not align with the proper ports letting fuel out to the injectors at the right time. Now that I think of it, seeing as this shaft was stuck earlier, this may be you problem. Your washer may not be shattered, but the shape of the hole is mashed creating slop. The guts on the IP need to be a tight fit. I still think you need to disassemble your IP if Spedmons timing suggestion doesn't fix you up. Its probably (most probably) not a glow plug issue.

 

[treeguy]

The sticking in the rod/pin to time the pump, how are you sure that it is going into the face gear slot? The pin will go in but not knowing how far when not in the face gear and then in the face gear will give you a different depth (obviously), Just a thought. So it may or may not be timed, but you did do the #2 timing fuel check thing-a-ma-jig testing, so maybe the rod did go in.

 

[LuckyDog]

When it runs for the short time that it does, does is seem to run on all cylinders?

Yes

Your over thinking the IP pump regarding the timing or IP out of time with itself

Occupational Hazard. I am now an Engineer, paid to think... and finding my technician skills waning.

I was reading the AMBAC Service Instructions for the IP. If the "Plunger Guide" (#26 of figure 1) was put in up-side-down, that would put the timing off by 180 degrees.

Has anyone else done the "Timing Method #2"????
Doesn't the flow out the #1 line match up with the rod-into-the-face-gear-slot?

I still think you need to disassemble your IP if Spedmons timing suggestion doesn't fix you up.

I think so too. Because of the frozen fittings, it's a PITA, and I don't have a shop to work in; I am trying EVERYTHING else to avoid that.

I will be triple check the timing and verify #1 cyclinder is on a compression stroke when the rod slips into the face gear hole/slot. Won't be for a week or so due to traveling.

Will post my findings.


I change the color / contrast for PeterD. Hope I don't offend anyone.

 

[treeguy]

"If the "Plunger Guide" (#26 of figure 1) was put in up-side-down, that would put the timing off by 180 degrees."

Yes, I was thinking about that last night. It does seem possible but you haven't taken yours apart yet, but no one knows if any one has. Who ever you got it from (jenny) unless GL, did they say it ran or had they ever run it? It must have been run, there are hours on the meter right?

 

[treeguy]

I just looked in the other thread about this that I put the picture of the drive washer. There is a little bump on one side of the washer so that when it is installed into the face gear it fits one way. So the driver washer can only go in ONE WAY, this will avoid the internal mismatched timing you were talking about, even if you flip the washer over (like flipping a pancake - ok) the hole in the middle will still have the flat oriented in the right spot. (Look at your hand held flat in front of you, then flip it over - the bump will prevent install in this way. But hold your hand flat out again in front of you and point your hand right then left, the hole will still be oriented in the same way.)

But this is all out the window if the washer is shattered. See pic in "MEP 002A not starting"

 

[LuckyDog]

Your over thinking the IP pump regarding the timing or IP out of time with itself ...

Story of my life.

So, after a long (and awful) 9 months, I have gotten back to work on the generator.

I took the IP off and disassembled it. Turned out to be easier than I thought. Ok, you guys were right.

The plunger guide (PN: GU8546) was broke. As mentioned, the plunger was stuck when I got it but I got it to free up. After that the motor would start ocassionally. Then, stop like the fuel was shut-off. I feel really good about all the timing work I did last year. I pulled the valve cover off and the pump is definitely timed to #1 PC on compression stroke. YaHoo!!

Now to find a plunger guide. Diamond Diesel in Oakland, CA wants $40 for one. He has a gasket kit for $48. If I didn't need the delivery valve spacer, I might forgo the kit. Maybe when I get the kit I will find O-ring that match and start selling the kits myself. That plunger guide should be a simple thing to make too, eh?

Soon, I too should have a sweet running little 002A

THANK YOU to all who have shared on this site. Couldn't have gotten this far without you.

 

[flyxpl]

would you have any pics or diagrams of the plunger guide ? I belieive this is the part I have broke in mine , but I can't seem to find a part #.
Thanks,
Joe

 

[RichardR]

LuckyDog,

You can get Plunger Guides and other parts directly from AMBAC, and almost surely less expensively than anywhere else (but still not cheap). The manuals are on their website:

http://www.ambac.net/images/Diese_Fuel_Injection_Pump.pdf

http://www.ambac.net/images/9540A.pdf

Call 1-800-628-6894 and a very nice lady will take your order. It may help speed things along if you have looked up the part numbers before you call.

Any time the plunger sticks, you can expect the plunger guide to break. I believe treeguy was able to repair his by welding it back together, but my advice is to take the easy way out and buy a new one (about $15 + shipping). As well as I can remember, there are only a few o-rings and the delivery valve spacer that you might want to replace while you have it apart, but I was able to reuse the old ones without any problems.

Hope this helps,
Richard

 

[storeman]

I have 2 IP's apart now for cleaning and see no signs of problems in them.

I Also have an 002a with a good IP on it that I can't get to fire with pop-tested injectors. Flywheel is so badly rusted I can't see PC marks, even after spraying with phosphoric acid. What are my options for timing if I can't see any marks?
Jerry

 

[RichardR]

Jerry,

As far as I know, the only way to time one of these engines is by reference to the PC mark on the flywheel, or the PC angle of rotation of the engine. If you cannot see the PC mark on the flywheel, you can find where the PC mark is supposed to be by following the procedure in Section 7-4 of TM 5-6115-584-34.

The procedure is not simple nor easy but, according to the manual, it's the only accurate way to do it. Basically, PC is the engine rotation point at which the #1 piston is 0.128 inches below (and rising toward) Top Dead Center. Not an easy measurement to make but the manual tells how to do it.

Hope this helps,
Richard

 

[storeman]

Thanks Richard. I'll dig into the manual. Was unaware of that alternative.
Jerry

 

[LuckyDog]

LuckyDog,

Call 1-800-628-6894 and a very nice lady will take your order. It may help speed things along if you have looked up the part numbers before you call.

She is a very nice lady.

Parts are on there way.
$15 for the plunger guide (GU8546)
$36 and change for the rebuild gasket kit (KT85166) [That is their $48.15 web price - 25%]

Just under $7 for UPS Ground shipping.

WaHOOOO

 

[treeguy]

Thanks for sharing that info, Luckydog! That is very helpfull, I might just order those parts to have on hand.

 

[RichardR]

LuckyDog,

Did the very nice lady at AMBAC tell you what parts are included in the KT85166 Rebuild Kit? As I mentioned above, I didn't replace anything except the broken plunger guide, although the o-rings and a few other bits probably ought to have been replaced per normal procedure. I just got lucky and was able to reuse the original parts.

But it would be good to know which parts AMBAC considers normal wear-out items that should be replaced at overhaul. I didn't even think to ask the nice lady whether they had a rebuild kit. And I cannot find the KT85166 kit contents listed on their website. If she didn't specify to you what the kit contains, would you please make a list for us when you receive the kit?

Thanks,
Richard