MEP002a questions

[2deuce]

My generator seems to be set up differently than most. I don't think mine uses the line selector switch. Everything is like a convenience plug. I haven't counted how many it has, but there are 3 cord retractors and a post with more plugs. It is trailer mounted.

One of my concerns is the original convenience plug was cut and taped off. I thought it must have been because the receptacle went bad, but with my limited understanding of electricity,
I'm not sure if there could be another reason, because why wouldn't it be replaced if that was the case. I put in another plug. Nothing is wired to any of the lines L1,L2,L3,L0. I'm wondering if they are available?

I got this generator from the military 20 years ago, it has been under a bunch of tarps since, so I don't have high expectations for it. I put some batteries in it, and the panel lights come on and the fuel pump pumps. I have not tried to crank it yet. When I got it from GL I thought it was a non-runner, and bought it for the trailer.

Others must have been wired like this, but I haven't found any yet so I thought I'd ask the experts how it's wired, and the options I have if it runs.
And how deep should the ground rod be?
Thanks

 

[Ray70]

If you could send us some detailed pictures of the machine, that would help a lot.
Especially take pictures of the AC reconnection box and take the side cover off and take pictures inside the AC box.
Point the camera upward to get a picture of the underside of the L1 L2 L3 L0 lugs.
I would imagine it has been modified by adding the cord reels wired to the inside of the AC reconnect box, but a couple pictures will tell for sure how to put it back to original.

If it's been sitting for 20 years you will need to pay close attention to the suggested start-up procedures you will find posted all over this site.
Don't even think of throwing in fuel oil and filters and attempting to start it. You will most likely damage the injection pump if it has any 20 year old fuel in it.

Take your time, do things step by step and I'm sure the machine will live again.

 

[2deuce]

If you could send us some detailed pictures of the machine, that would help a lot.
Especially take pictures of the AC reconnection box and take the side cover off and take pictures inside the AC box.
Point the camera upward to get a picture of the underside of the L1 L2 L3 L0 lugs.
I would imagine it has been modified by adding the cord reels wired to the inside of the AC reconnect box, but a couple pictures will tell for sure how to put it back to original.

If it's been sitting for 20 years you will need to pay close attention to the suggested start-up procedures you will find posted all over this site.
Don't even think of throwing in fuel oil and filters and attempting to start it. You will most likely damage the injection pump if it has any 20 year old fuel in it.

Take your time, do things step by step and I'm sure the machine will live again.

I did drain the old fuel, but I've left the IP alone. I put a wrench on the engine, and it isn't stuck, so it has that much going for it. The old fuel was clean, but amber in color. I'm not sure if you're saying I should remove the IP, but I'm not qualified to do a rebuild.
I had a JD tractor that was sitting a long time where the IP was locked up, and when they attempted to start it, it broke the pump drive shaft, and then it sat for many more years before I got it, not knowing what was wrong. The pump couldn't be rebuilt because the old fuel locked it up. I don't feel that is the case here. I could remove the pump, but I think a shop would want to rebuild it, or sell me a new one.
So far I've just been cleaning the machine up, and changed the oil. Which leads to this question. I changed the oil filter, and added 4 quarts knowing it takes 4 with the filter change, but should I drain a quart, and add it back after it runs awhile, and fills the filter? I see the warnings of "do not overfill", and worry if any harm could be in running it initially with too much in the crankcase?
I won't be home today, but will post pictures Friday.

Thanks

 

[Ray70]

The main issue with the 002 is similar to your JD tractor incident.
If the old fuel has gummed up the injection pump and the center plunger is stuck, rotating the engine can either break the plunger guide ( on an Ambac M50 pump ) which acts like a shear pin to protect the pump from damage, or you can break the plunger itself if you have a Bosch PSU pump ( plunger is not repairable and you must replace the entire pump )
There are dozens of threads on here explaining ways to fill the IP with acetone or SeaFoam, then remove the center cap, metering valve holder and then tap on the plunger to free it up, before turning the engine or attempting to start it.
The good news is if you have an Ambac M50 pump, they can be repaired if the plunger guide is broken, I have done dozens of them for other SS members.
You should spend some time researching here to identify which pump you have and learn how to properly prep the machine before you try starting it.
Then if there are any problems, lots of folks here will assist.
For starters, here is how to identify your pump: Look underneath at the body of the pump. A Bosch PSU pump will have a boss cast into the body pointing straight down with a very large flat head screw in the end of it. ( you don't want to see this )
An Ambac M50 will have that same boss, but it is just solid aluminum, no flat head screw in the bottom.

 

[2deuce]

I have the Bosch pump, it has the screw.
The 1st thing I did when I pulled it out of the woods was to see if the engine was stuck. If it was stuck, I would have parted it, or scrapped it, and not bothered with all the cleaning, buying filters etc. My mistake.

With that JD tractor IP...I found out there is nothing that can be done if it is gummed up, it will shear the shaft. The shop said they will not come apart, it becomes scrap, not even a core, and you need a new or rebuilt pump. That may be the case here. Since I did turn the motor would the damage already be done?
If so, does it make any sense going through with the procedure to unstick it?
I did take a look on the back side of the lines L1, L2, etc. and nothing is connected. It was too dark for pictures. I can get those tomorrow.
Thanks

 

[Chainbreaker]

Agree we need detailed pictures as Ray suggests. Also what year does it show on the MFG Placard for build date and how many hours on Hobbs meter?

All would not be lost even if you damaged the Bosch PSU IJ pump, you could still go on the hunt for an Ambac M50 pump as its replacement. Hard to find... but not impossible to source if someone has one off a MEP-002a/-003a that they are parting out. Of course, you are looking at spending some $ to source a working one.

In addition to what Ray suggested, you should remove the last fuel cannister & fill it with either Acetone or Seafoam replace & let fuel pumps run for say 30 - 60 seconds to ensure the IJ pump has purged all the old diesel & filled with Acetone or Seafoam & then let it sit overnight. Repeat running pumps next morning & then carry on with the technique as mentioned for tapping on the plunger. IIRC, member "Jamawieb" had a good procedure documented for doing this, it's not complicated.

 

[Ray70]

Well, as CB said, there is no reason to give up until you see where you're at. To tell you the truth, 20 year old fuel is better than 4 year old fuel because of the recent Low Sulfur non-sense, but 20 years is a long time.

Start by moving the fuel lever, if it moves freely you have 2 options, Attempt the procedure to free up the pump, incase it's stuck, or simply remove it and know for sure. I can easily talk you through the removal and installation process and I can look at the pump for you if needed, but usually if your plunger broke you will know it as soon as you take it out.

If the lever is stuck I would not even bother taking a chance, just remove it and clean it and see what condition its in.
If your pump plunger is damaged you have no choice other than to replace the pump.
However, the PSU pump does use a drive key to connect the plunger to the drive gear, that is intended to shear off before the plunger shaft snaps.
That drive key ( looks like a tiny golf club ) is also obsolete / unobtainable but I did successfully machine my own replacement once.

BUT... I have seen 7 broken PSU pumps and only 1 of them broke the drive key instead of the plunger shaft.
I have a couple spare pumps, but as CB mentioned, the cost of a pump is probably way more than you have invested in the machine itself.
So lets start by seeing what condition your pump is in.... Does the fuel lever move freely?

 

[2deuce]

The linkage looks complicated. The spring loaded shaft moves up and down. It was sticky at first. I think I'm looking at the right thing. I think there is a stop at the bottom that's adjustable, and a solenoid that allows the throttle to move when it's running with oil pressure.

When I turned the engine over, I didn't fell anything let loose, or break. Only felt what I thought was compression.
The machine has a 1983 date, and 6400 hours. I remember bidding on the one with the highest hours. When I picked it up it looked better than the ones with 30-40 hours. I thought It might be rebuilt, that was what I was hoping for bidding on the one with the highest hours. It had new batteries, and filters, and thought that wouldn't happen to a non-runner.
Hour meters get changed to, and they were typical GL pictures, so it was hard to tell what you were getting. I want to say I paid 260, or 360. I got it from the Umatilla Army depot where they burnt the nerve gas years ago. I remember seeing the new batteries at the time, and they have an 02 date on them, so that's where I'm getting the 20 years. One of them still had a charge in it after all this time, but it has a dead cell.

 

[Ray70]

Don't be afraid of the linkage, just lift up on the ring at the tip of the solenoid plunger, it's just pushing down on the linkage lever coming out of the IP.
Then you can move the lever right where it comes out of the pump.
You will not hear or feel anything when turning the motor over as far as a noise if the plunger or key snapped.

 

[2deuce]

The ring does lift without resistance. I only feel the spring pressure. What should do next?

 

[2deuce]

The picture of the trailer hitch shows the line from the control box w/breakers entering the main box in the front. I'm wondering if this setup would also allow me to use the L1,L2,L3,L0 with the control knob on the dash?

 

[2deuce]

From what I understand I should not have turned the engine over with a wrench. By doing this my understanding is I would have damaged the IP if it was stuck, and it would not have made a difference how far I turned it.
Being that it is already damaged, or it is operable, an unknown, is there any harm in trying to start it? If I remove it from the engine, and it was found ok, I would just reinstall it?
If I crank the engine, and it doesn't start I know it is inoperable from the hand crank episode, at this point I can't damage it more or again? Am I correct with this logic, or is there something else that could happen by cranking it now?
Thanks

 

[Ray70]

By "Ring" I assume you mean the tip of the solenoid plunger?
Lift or pry that up with a screwdriver to hold it out of your way.
Does the lever coming out of the side of the IP ( with the linkage rod attached to it move freely up and down, or is it sticking?
It's impossible to say for sure what the current condition of the pump is but....
Turning by hand can be different than cranking. If it's binding but not frozen solid it may have moved but not snapped when you rotated it.

Cranking fast with the starter could still damage it because of the additional speed.
It's a crap shoot at this point.
If you remove it and it's good you can either reinstall it ( according to the TM instruction for pump timing ) or clean it up good, then reinstall.
The issue is that you are supposed to rotate the motor until the PC timing mark is visible in the flywheel window, then remove the pump.

BUT, you can't turn the motor without risking damage.
You need to remove it in its current location and then rotate the motor to the appropriate position, #1 cyl. compression stroke with "PC" aligned with the pointer on the bellhousing. set the pump to the correct position by removing the screw on the left of the mounting flange and inserting a 1/8" drill bit through that hole and into the slot cut in the side of the drive gear, then install it and remove the drill bit.
This is necessary to ensure the pump timing is correct and is explained in the TM.
It's not that hard to remove and install and in my opinion well worth the 1/2hr. of effort to potentially save a $1000+ IP.
First thing is see if linkage is free. If not there is no point in trying to start it since it will not run.

If the linkage is free I would at least fill it with acetone and let it sit a few days, then perform the technique to verify the plunger is free.
It is also possible that the plunger can spin but not pump in and out. This will also prevent it from starting but can often be freed up using the acetone technique.

Looking inside your AC connect box, the wires are still on the underside of the L1 L2 L3 L0 studs.
How is the breaker panel connected, I can't see where the wires go once they enter the AC box.
Did they attach them to the main breaker of the Lugs somehow?
I also see the circuit breaker for the 110V outlet is missing / removed as well as the outlet.

 

[2deuce]

The linkage moves, but what is the nut with the slot in the stud adjusting?(that is below the linkage)? If that is supposed to move ... it doesn't. There is a spring behind it, that could be attached to that stud.

I can't see back in there. The spring loaded shaft, and the lever below it that is attached to moves easily when I push up on it.
When PC is in the window, is #1 on the compression stroke, or could it be 180* off? If it could be 180* off how do I tell the compression stroke?

When you say fill it with acetone, do you mean the filter housing, and then run the pump? Will it flow through the pump if it is not plugged, or gummed up? Can I loosen a line and check for flow?

Thanks

 

[Ray Cook]

Deuce,
There is another way to remove and install the injection pump without re-timing everything. Once everything is disconnected, the pump will slide straight off the side of the engine without any rotation. You will see a slot in the driven gear on the pump.

Use a marker (a Sharpie-type works well) to draw a line on the pump body where the slot is. After checking out/cleaning/repairing your pump, you can align the slot with that line and so long as nobody rotated the engine, all should be just as it was. I did this with my 003A and it worked out fine. Hope that helps! Ray

 

[Guyfang]

Wellllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll, it works as long as YOU don't rotate the IP. When you put the IP back in, and don't rotate the IP, all is well. If you put the IP back in and the engine won't start, or runs like crap, then, (IAW) the TM, you need to remove the IP, rotate it 180 degrees, and reinstall.

 

[2deuce]

Thanks guys, that's very good to know.
When the IP is out, is it safe to move it in reverse to get it back to where it was, or does it need to be rotated forward only?(and 2 turns to avoid being 180* out?) Is it apparent when I have it out which way it should turn?
Thanks

 

[Ray70]

You can rotate the motor either direction if you are trying to get back to PC mark.
If you are unsure about being at #1 compression, you can look inside the opening for the IP. The valve lobe to the right of center is the #1 intake.
If you look through the IP hold that cam lobe should be pointing towards you and down at say the 4:00 position.
If not, you are 180* off.
The engine rotates clockwise when looking at the blower wheel, you can also take off the valve cover rotate the motor until the #1 intake valve opens and closes. Continue to rotate clockwise about 1/2 turn more until you see the PC mark.

That screw with the nut on the IP lever is the limit stop and does not move.
It sounds like your IP may be in good shape if the linkage is moving freely.
Most guys fill the last filter with acetone, then run the pump to push it into the IP.
You should hear fuel trickling back into the tank, confirming fuel is circulating.

 

[2deuce]

To R&R the IP and lines am I going to need gaskets, washers, o-rings etc.? I'd like to have what I will need before I start.
If the pump is damaged inside will I be able to see any problem, or will I need to have it tested?

Thanks

 

[Ray70]

To R&R the pump, the only gasket in question is an o-ring sealing the pump body to the block.
Usually the o-ring can be reused in a pinch.
Worst case you can just add a bead of gasket sealer to the o-ring.
On a PSU pump if the plunger shaft is broken you will know it as soon as you remove it and take off the cap ( just held on with friction from an o-ring ) that rides against the cam.
Is the plunger is broken, it's tip that rides against the timing button under that cap will be obviously loose and wobbly.
However, disassembly is the only way to check to see if the "golf club" shaped drive key is broken.