Question about French 404s

[L1A1]

Hello List!
I know that the French contract Unimogs used the "roadster" type cab top and appear to have the drop side beds on the cargo/troop trucks but that's all I know about them* Are there any other neuances that set them apart from the Belgian or German 404s? Thanks.

Regards,
Matt


* I know that the French Army in W.Germany was one of the first Military's to buy Unimogs and that they (the French) were not well known for pulling maintenance on them... Rode hard, put away wet?

 

[expeditionimports]

Quite a few of the French 404's were the short wheelbase versions. Differences in general: 108" Wheel Base versus standard 114" Different Generator, Different Voltage Regulator. Safarri Windshield. Bed Bows are not tied into the bedsides. (Much nicer as it allows the bedside to be dropped while the bows are in place. Not so with the standard Belgian/German) "Pizza Cutter" wheels. Windshield wiper motors at top of windshield. Handles on the hood to turn to open. Rear Torque Tube is smaller diameter. Rear bumperettes off of frame rails.

Bottom line, if you find an original short wheelbase that is original it is far more collectible than the standard 404's.

Cheers,

Scott

 

[Another Ahab]

Unimogs:

- Subscribed.

 

[L1A1]

Scott
Thank you for the reply. I haven't been over to see the 'Mog in question in person(yet). Are the cargo bed floors on the French trucks wood or steel? I'm sure I'll have more questions (I just have to think of them first ) .

Matt

 

[expeditionimports]

Should be wood. I don't believe I have ever seen any 404 cargo bed floor out of steel on an original truck........ Post up some pics when you take a look.

Cheers,

Scott

 

[tennmogger]

What Scott says!!!

I have a French 1957 404 made just after the standard wheelbase of the 404's was lengthened (that was in '56). The French bought a bunch of the longer ones too, and considering the scarcity of the short wheelbase mogs, chances are any 404 Unimog you see for sale will be the longer wheelbase. If the advertisement does not specify the short wheelbase (and be priced accordingly) then it's probably the long one.

In '57 the factory was still using the hoods with turning latches, and putting bumberettes on the rear. Mine also has the 'safari' windshield, the type that kicks out at the bottom for air into the cab. Very nice in warm weather. The wipers are overhead on this windshield also.

Other than what Scott mentions, the French 404 Unimogs were very similar to the German, Belgium, etc, mogs, in contrast to the Swiss mogs that had many unique features. The "French' mogs will use the same doors and top canvas, and top frame, as the majority of 404 mogs, making parts easier to get.

As for French maintenance, I had heard the same thing, that is, don't expect the French 404's to be as well maintained as the Swiss Unimogs (which have an excellent reputation).

Matt, considering that the 404 you are looking at has probably been through a few civilian hands since it came out of the military, I suggest you can forget about what military maintenance could have lacked. Consider the condition as it sits right now.

However, you should familiarize yourself on rebuild indicators such as plates on the engine, transmission, and front and rear axles. Chances are those will be replacements and will have dates on them. My French Unimog underwent several upgrades and most mechanical components are actually from the late 70's and up to mid 80's.

The tag on the engine will even indicate the amount the crank has been turned and cylinders bored.

Also look for a total truck rebuild plate on the firewall above the passengers feet, in the engine compartment. If you see "MAT" followed by a number, note the number. MAT5 is a total rebuild, and smaller numbers designate lower levels of rebuild. I don't have the list handy though.

Did the seller indicate what year it was?

Bob

 

[Another Ahab]

Other than what Scott mentions, the French 404 Unimogs were very similar to the German, Belgium, etc, mogs, in contrast to the Swiss mogs that had many unique features. The "French' mogs will use the same doors and top canvas, and top frame, as the majority of 404 mogs, making parts easier to get.

The tag on the engine will even indicate the amount the crank has been turned and cylinders bored.

Also look for a total truck rebuild plate on the firewall above the passengers feet, in the engine compartment. If you see "MAT" followed by a number, note the number. MAT5 is a total rebuild, and smaller numbers designate lower levels of rebuild. I don't have the list handy though.

Bob

Pretty amazing the detail provided in the plate and tag (VERY Swiss/ German).

What's the story on the "unique" Swiiss features?

 

[L1A1]

What's the story on the "unique" Swiiss features?

Ahab
The Swiss purchased their trucks as incomplete cab & chassis w/o tops. They built their own cab tops which didn't fold up like the French,Belgian or German Mogs. So it was either on or off the truck. The Swiss cargo beds had the fold down troop seats like the M35s where the troops sat facing each other. Instead of fuses, the Swiss 404s use circuit breakers and the Swiss trucks didn't have fuel guages, they used a metal dip stick located instead the passenger's(?) side door.

Matt

 

[L1A1]

What Scott says!!!

I have a French 1957 404 made just after the standard wheelbase of the 404's was lengthened (that was in '56). The French bought a bunch of the longer ones too, and considering the scarcity of the short wheelbase mogs, chances are any 404 Unimog you see for sale will be the longer wheelbase. If the advertisement does not specify the short wheelbase (and be priced accordingly) then it's probably the long one. The image sent to me from the seller is a 3/4 front view & it looks like the standard (114") wheelbase 404 to me

In '57 the factory was still using the hoods with turning latches, and putting bumberettes on the rear. Mine also has the 'safari' windshield, the type that kicks out at the bottom for air into the cab. Very nice in warm weather. The wipers are overhead on this windshield also. While the windshield on this one looks different from the Swiss 404s I've seen, the wipers are mounted on the bottem not top. There are no turing latches on the hood as well-maybe a later contract truck?

Other than what Scott mentions, the French 404 Unimogs were very similar to the German, Belgium, etc, mogs, in contrast to the Swiss mogs that had many unique features. The "French' mogs will use the same doors and top canvas, and top frame, as the majority of 404 mogs, making parts easier to get. That's good to know!

As for French maintenance, I had heard the same thing, that is, don't expect the French 404's to be as well maintained as the Swiss Unimogs (which have an excellent reputation). Yeah a German Vet once told me something very similar. I don't think anything is as well maintained as whatever it is the Swiss are using

Matt, considering that the 404 you are looking at has probably been through a few civilian hands since it came out of the military, I suggest you can forget about what military maintenance could have lacked. Consider the condition as it sits right now. This Mog left French hands a long time ago so I'm not worried about that aspect. You are absolutly right about being concerned with it's current condition. Which is not perfect.

However, you should familiarize yourself on rebuild indicators such as plates on the engine, transmission, and front and rear axles. Chances are those will be replacements and will have dates on them. My French Unimog underwent several upgrades and most mechanical components are actually from the late 70's and up to mid 80's. I'll try and take notes when I look at it & report back what I find.

The tag on the engine will even indicate the amount the crank has been turned and cylinders bored.

Also look for a total truck rebuild plate on the firewall above the passengers feet, in the engine compartment. If you see "MAT" followed by a number, note the number. MAT5 is a total rebuild, and smaller numbers designate lower levels of rebuild. I don't have the list handy though.

Did the seller indicate what year it was? No he didn't. The truck is sporting a faded MATO three color camo paint job like the German radio trucks are usually sporting. Knowing that, and along with the windshield wiper location I have to wonder if the seller is certain that his Mog is actually French & not German???

Bob

Matt

 

[M813rc]

Additionally -
the Swiss front bumper does not have cutouts for blackout lights, they used a single large B/O light mounted on a plate bolted to the inside top of the drivers side of the bumper.
Swiss front turn/marker light lenses are straight white, rather than the white/amber combo.
They have different stowage boxes under the bed sides, and have rear mudguards.
The drivers door has a leather pouch for papers etc, rather than the usual metal box. The fuel dipstick is in the passenger door, as stated above.
The Swiss windshield frame is slightly different at the top, to accommodate their non-folding roof canvas, which bolts rather than clamps to the frame. You can retrofit a German style canvas roof to a Swiss Mog, but you need a German windshield to go with it.
Swiss trucks have added jack points under the axles.
And lastly, the tail-lights and rear-view mirror heads are quite different from everyone elses.

There are a few other minor differences.

Cheers

 

[Another Ahab]

Additionally -
the Swiss front bumper does not have cutouts for blackout lights, they used a single large B/O light mounted on a plate bolted to the inside top of the drivers side of the bumper.
Swiss front turn/marker light lenses are straight white, rather than the white/amber combo.
They have different stowage boxes under the bed sides, and have rear mudguards.
The drivers door has a leather pouch for papers etc, rather than the usual metal box. The fuel dipstick is in the passenger door, as stated above.
Cheers

That's a class act. Sounds Swiss.

 

[L1A1]

That's a class act. Sounds Swiss.

Only if it was milled out of a solid block of steel.......... . About ten years ago I looked at (& seriously considered) buying one of the Swiss 'Mogs. If I recall, Eurotruck importers had them for around $7500. Can't remember why I didn't pull the trigger back then..

Matt

 

[M813rc]

There were a surprising number of leather fittings on my Swiss Mog. The folding troop seats hang on the bed sides, and each bracket has a nicely fitted heavy leather sleeve that keeps it from rattling/squeaking, or scratching the paint!

I lucked out and got my truck just as the glut peaked, around 2001 or so. They had sold off most of the cruddy trucks that had already been retired from service first, then started retiring the good in-use ones. That's what I got. Had 13,000 kilometers on the clock. All the tools, tow cable, fuel cans, etc., that they carried in service, including a folding bucket and sponge for washing it, were on board, along with all the paperwork, manuals, and maintenance records. Even got two sets of keys. Total cost, including shipping to the US in a container, was just over $5k.
As the supplies dwindled, nice trucks continued to come out, a few at a time, but the prices started an upward climb.

The short wb French trucks do look very interesting, I'd love to see one restored.

Cheers

PS - For those not familiar with them, here are a couple of shots of a French SWB Mog. Very attractive vehicle.

 

[L1A1]

M813rc
Thanks for posting those pics. You're right, the French SWB unimogs do look interesting . For some reason, I was thinking more along the lines of the super short agricultural 401 or 406 models. The end of march I'm going to drive up and actually have a look at the French mog in question. I'm sure I'll have more questions when I return.....
Matt

 

[Another Ahab]

I lucked out and got my truck just as the glut peaked, around 2001 or so. They had sold off most of the cruddy trucks that had already been retired from service first, then started retiring the good in-use ones. That's what I got. Had 13,000 kilometers on the clock. All the tools, tow cable, fuel cans, etc., that they carried in service, including a folding bucket and sponge for washing it, were on board, along with all the paperwork, manuals, and maintenance records. Even got two sets of keys. Total cost, including shipping to the US in a container, was just over $5k.
As the supplies dwindled, nice trucks continued to come out, a few at a time, but the prices started an upward climb.
.

That price is right:

- that was a ready-to-run machine; fully functional?

 

[L1A1]

That price is right:

- that was a ready-to-run machine; fully functional?

From what I was told (a long-long time ago)by a (Swiss 404) owner was that the Swiss didn't sell off anything that they felt was less than perfect (road-worthy?). Vehicles they felt were sub par, got cut up for scrap.

Matt

 

[L1A1]

Another question (still pertaining to this thread, though) What does the hive mind think about a 404 needing complete resto? Possible project for someone or "forget it, go & find one in better shape"?

Matt

 

[Another Ahab]

From what I was told (a long-long time ago)by a (Swiss 404) owner was that the Swiss didn't sell off anything that they felt was less than perfect (road-worthy?). Vehicles they felt were sub par, got cut up for scrap.

Matt

That also sounds very Swiss.

 

[tennmogger]

Matt, the answer to your question depends on what is 'complete resto', and your goals. Unless you like big and long term projects it's best to get solid drive train at a minimum, but anything else can be 'restored' with elbow grease. If you are getting a Unimog to work on and piddle with, then go for it. They are fun vehicles to analyze and learn how MB threw away the book when designing them. Parts are available once you learn the 'network' of people involved with them, and our USA parts resellers.

If your goal is to get something on the road asap then you should get a better truck. If the mechanicals are solid, you can drive it while completing the body restoration. Unless, of course, you live somewhere that restricts rust buckets on the road or has strict testing to pass.

I personally like the resto part of it as much as the having it afterward. From many posts on here, others get a huge dose of satisfaction on a full restoration. It's almost a religious experience to turn a pile of junk into a nice vehicle! If you go for a 'complete resto' level truck, the price should be low. Be aware though that 'low' price for any Unimog, even a non-runner, is probably going to be $5k and up. Sources are drying up overseas for the 404's.

You should drive a 404 to know what you are getting into!

Bob

Another question (still pertaining to this thread, though) What does the hive mind think about a 404 needing complete resto? Possible project for someone or "forget it, go & find one in better shape"?

Matt

 

[Robo McDuff]

Question about French 404 ... roadster

Actually, there is quite a difference with the real French 404 roadster

The full type looks like this

I have a pic (not digital) somewhere me as a much younger boy repairing one. If I find it I will post it.