Run 2 x MEP 002a in parallel for 10kw total?

[Boreal21]

I imagine this question has been asked before, but I couldn't find any threads after a couple of searches. Apologies if it's been covered before...

Anyway, I know GL sells the 002s as sets on trailers and I was just assuming that was so they could have 5kw or 10kw, depending on need. My boss was wanting to get a 003 for backup power to his house, but they are few and far between at my local GL and tend to sell for a premium. On the other hand, 002s will come up far more frequently and can be had for ~$400 each.

So my question is, can we pick up a couple of these 002s that are readily available and have them hooked up in parallel so that if there is an outage he could fire up one or two sets based on his need?

 

[derf]

Nope. No way to sync them up.

You could run the two separately, but you wouldn't be able to combine the outputs to drive loads over the single unit rated limits.

5kWs will put out about 7.5kW, generally speaking.

They are LOUD! Hunh? I can't hear you because they are so loud.

 

[jasonjc]

They are set up on the trailers that way so you have 5kw all the time. If one needs worked on you flip the swtich and the other one takes over. Not 5kw or 10kw.
As far as running 2 parallel my understanding is that it is hard to syc them together. Each needs to be running at the same cycles. But some one smarter than me needs to anwser

 

[Chief_919]

Nope. No way to sync them up.

You could run the two separately, but you wouldn't be able to combine the outputs to drive loads over the single unit rated limits.

5kWs will put out about 7.5kW, generally speaking.

They are LOUD! Hunh? I can't hear you because they are so loud.

Yep. They are two to a trailer so that you can run one while the other is down for rest/maintenance. They can't by synced up.

 

[Boreal21]

Interesting. Thanks for the heads up. I guess I'll just be patient and wait for another 003. There was one that sold yesterday with ~1,600 hours on it plus the acoustic enclosure, but it went for a premium (at least in my opinion)... $1,250.

Meanwhile they sold probably 10 002s for anywhere from $400 to $700 for a couple in enclosures.

 

[Isaac-1]

Your lucky, for the last year or more all the MEP-002's on GL within reasonable driving range have went for more than $1,000 and MEP-003's in the $2,000 ballpark.

Ike

 

[Boreal21]

Wow... I wonder if that's because you're on the Gulf and subject to extended outages thanks to hurricanes etc? Maybe we should put a thread together showing the regional price differences on gensets. I know shipping from any distance would probably kill the deal, but if someone was interested in multiple units it might be worth their while to buy in bulk somewhere else.

I know 100kw gensets were few and far between locally, so we finally bought some out of Albany. We ended up getting 4 to make it worth the freight

 

[mendo]

Yep. They are two to a trailer so that you can run one while the other is down for rest/maintenance. They can't by synced up.

Actually, they can be synced up, not cheaply though. you could hook them both up to a parallelling board that also has Gen Control, powered breakers and phase detection devices.

Most of these are larger, in the 2500A range at 480V. if you are super adventerous and have a good knowledge of switchgear, you could probably make one for about 4-5,000 bucks.

Another way to split it up would be to feed half of the load with one and half the load with the other. you could do that with a couple of manual transfer switches for under $500.

 

[Isaac-1]

I suspect it is a combination of factors, in your area I suspect price is depressed due to California clean air laws banning all older non EPA TIER rated diesel generators as gross polluters as of a couple of years ago, and therefore flooding the market with used diesel generators. Of course the state of California also paid for destruction of many of these units, much like the cash for clunkers car campaign so it did limit the number being exported out of the state.

Ike

p.s. The larger commercial units come up fairly often here, I bought a 30 year old low hour 125KW Onan from GL a couple of years ago for about $4,000, it required a new control board and a couple of other minor repair to get running (totally another $500 or so), I also bought a 20 year old 3,000 hour 33KW Kohler diesel generator from GL for $1,200 which I consider a good deal, it did take a bit of work to get running, but not too many dollars ($250 and a free time over a couple of weeks)

 

[PeterD]

I suspect that it is possible to parallel virtually any set of identical generators, if someone were to create a synchronizing panel with lights. I believe I know of one case where a pair of MEP-002's were synchronized for a large building, but it could have been a different model.

Synchronizing lights are lights placed from identical hot phases (two of the three) which when the neutrals are connected will light when the power is out of sync. When the two lights go off, then generators are phased or synchronized and can be both connected to the load. Once synchronized they will stay that way unless there is a major problem with one unit. (Uh, no I don't recommend trying to parallel generator sets that were not designed to be paralleled!)

 

[derf]

I suspect that it is possible to parallel virtually any set of identical generators, if someone were to create a synchronizing panel with lights. I believe I know of one case where a pair of MEP-002's were synchronized for a large building, but it could have been a different model.

Synchronizing lights are lights placed from identical hot phases (two of the three) which when the neutrals are connected will light when the power is out of sync. When the two lights go off, then generators are phased or synchronized and can be both connected to the load. Once synchronized they will stay that way unless there is a major problem with one unit. (Uh, no I don't recommend trying to parallel generator sets that were not designed to be paralleled!)

That sounds hinky. The lights do nothing but tell you if you are in phase. With nothing to hold the sets in phase you risk major problems. You need to be able to lock the gens in phase and at the same frequency. If one is off by a Hz then the sync will float and it won't be long before they are directly out of phase (60 seconds for 60Hz vs. 61HZ). Since RPM controls frequency on these gens, RPM would have to be exactly the same on both units.
Maybe you could line them up and tie the crankshafts together.

 

[Speddmon]

That sounds hinky. The lights do nothing but tell you if you are in phase. With nothing to hold the sets in phase you risk major problems. You need to be able to lock the gens in phase and at the same frequency. If one is off by a Hz then the sync will float and it won't be long before they are directly out of phase (60 seconds for 60Hz vs. 61HZ). Since RPM controls frequency on these gens, RPM would have to be exactly the same on both units.
Maybe you could line them up and tie the crankshafts together.

That's not entirely the case. When the sets are "in phase" and both are brought online they stay "in phase" through the magnetic properties of electricity. That's why you need to have them synced when you bring the second one online. If you are syncing to the utility, the more powerful utility will literally "pull" the generator into phase with it, and depending on how far it's out of phase, you could really damage the generator. However, if one generator even creeps up in speed slightly as you mentioned, then that generator starts to take on the majority of the load. Very soon you will find yourself overloading the generator taking all of the load.

As mentioned before. They can be paralleled, but not cheaply to do it properly. You are much better off getting the 10 KW generator if that's enough to satisfy your loads.

 

[derf]

I see what you say about the electromagnetic sync lock. Wouldn't you need to keep the load perfectly balanced for it to stay? What happens if you bring the second online and it is exactly 180 degrees out of phase? You get 480V?

I would think if there was an economical way to combine the outputs then the hardware would be included on those trailers that have two 002s mounted on them.

 

[Irv]

Synchronizing generators

Yes, you can hook two in parallel, as was discussed. This is done by ham radio operators during annual Field Day outings. Hook a light between the same phases and bump the governor on one a bit to change the speed a bit and wait for the light to go out. Once locked, they will stay locked by magnetic fields keeping them that way, up to a point. If one generator is sick, it will eventually unlock and then you have to possibility of double voltage. It's a trick for use in emergencies, but keep it as plan-B and just get a bigger generator. Irv

 

[G-Force]

I see what you say about the electromagnetic sync lock. Wouldn't you need to keep the load perfectly balanced for it to stay? What happens if you bring the second online and it is exactly 180 degrees out of phase? You get 480V?

I would think if there was an economical way to combine the outputs then the hardware would be included on those trailers that have two 002s mounted on them.

If you're 180 degrees out of phase you'll get smoke.