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What size generator needed

mudman

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Guys;

I'm wanting to get a generator for the house. What size would I need to run atypical house abnd maybe a well, gas stove, gas water heater, electric dryer I will be using a cloths line for that. want one big enough, but not a dinky one either. Thanks for information passed on .
Ken
 

quickfarms

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You need to make a list of all the electric appliances that you want to run and there amperage, or wattage requirements, both running and starting.

Your gas stove draws a small amount of power and may not need power if it has a pilot light.

Is your water heater and dryer gas or electric?

Do not forget you washing machine.

You did not mention a fridge or freezer

Your well pump is going to have a significant starting and running draw.

Do not forget about the lights but that demand can be greatly reduced if you use florescent or led bulbs.
 

plym49

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Rule of thumb, 3500 watts just for a refrigerator, control circuits for your varius heaters, and a tv set or computer.

10,000 watts for running most of the house, possibly including some a/c.

In both of the above examples, you need to watch that you do not exceed the ampacity of the genset. Some load switching will be needed (for example, unplug the refrigerator for an hour while you run something like the washing machine).

15,000 watts will usualy handle a home with no problems, and if you want to overkill it, 20000 watts.

These are rules-of-thumb as YMMV. For an exact calculation, you need to list things as QF said, and then compare that to how much you want to spend as you might need to make some trade-offs.
 

Isaac-1

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Remember bigger is not always better, not only does a bigger generator tend to cost more, it will consume more fuel even when running at no load, and if it is a diesel will develop wet stacking problems if not regularly being loaded down to at least 50% capacity.

First off add up the amp load of the things you want to be able to run at once, most appliances will have a data plate stating running load, this will give you a good rough estimate. Most consumer and military surplus generators are labelled in watts, (industrial units tend to be rated in watts and KVA's both, but lets try to keep this simple), so you will need to convert those amps to watts, for 120V appliances multiple amps by 120 to get watts, for 240V appliances multiply amps by 240 to get watts (this is assuming household 120/240 single phase).

Any generator wired up for 120/240 single phase will have 2 legs of 120V each equal to half the total capacity. So will want to make sure they can be wired up so as not to overload either side, the 240V loads will draw equally from both legs, this is usually not a big problem to balance out on any generator over about 5KW, under about 3 KW and I think it is usually better to get one that is connected to output only 120V on a single leg if possible.

Next decide how much fuel you need to have on hand for an outage, or how much your willing to spend for fuel if you have a natural gas connection. A few years ago there was a guy on another generator message board that had a nice 30KW Onan EK he used it during a nearly two week long outage due to a Hurricane on the gulf coast (I forget which one), it provided power for his house, as well as the houses on each side, and was still running at only a fraction of its capacity. A few weeks later he received his natural gas bill, it was for over $3,000. Again there is no wrong answer here, for me I have little 3KW MEP-701a diesel (think 4-5KW+ for a contractor grade commercial unit, the military uses creative math and is ultra-conservative on their ratings) I can run it for nearly a week at full load off the 80 odd gallons I keep on hand (mostly in the form of a 55 gallon drum in my shed), this will let me run my refrigerator and freezer, plus a pair of window air conditioners (8,000 and 11,000 btu), plus some lights, tv, computer, etc. (I have gas stove, and gas heat, but electric water heater, and dryer so no doing laundry in an outage for me, unless I turn everything else off wash with cold water and maybe run the dryer on low heat) Compare that to the 30 KW generator I installed at my elderly mother's house, she lives in an all electric big house on a farm and wants to be able to live life as normal with no thoughts of load management during a power outage. It is connected to a 100 gallon diesel tank, which will run the generator for about 4 days at 1/4 load (8KW sustained) , or for about a day and a half at full load (which means all the air conditioners running, while stove and oven are on, while running hot water from all 4 electric water heaters, doing laundry and the well pump going). Of course she also has another 1600 gallon diesel tank in the barn for the tractors.

Now that you have made your decision on how much your willing to invest in fuel, go back and add up the loads for what you NEED during an outage, and add on a little more for safety. It is possible to survive somewhat comfortably in an emergency with a very small generator and very active load management, I have done it with a little 1,000 watt honda inverter generator, it will run 3 or 4, 13 watt CF bulbs on lamps plugged into extension cords around the house as well as a couple of small fans, and a small radio for news, plus cycling power between the refrigerator and chest freezer as well as a small 5000 btu window air conditioner every couple of hours, letting each run about 2 hours out of every 6. The nice thing about the little honda is it will run nearly 4 hours on half a gallon of gasoline at full load, and as much as 8 hours at 1/4 load, sure that 1/4 load is only about 250 watts, but with CF lights, and modern low power electronics, that is plenty to light a house, run a laptop computer, tv, etc.

Ike

p.s. when I mentioned refrigerators and chest freezers above, be aware modern ones draw only a fraction of the power of older units. A modern household refrigerator with the door closed may draw less than 200 watts on average (700-800 watts with compressor running, allowing for compressor to run 25% of the time), compare this to a 20 year old refrigerator that may draw closer to 800 watts on average with both a longer duty cycle and higher draw for its compressor, and don't even think about the draw on 30-40 year old refrigerators. The same is true of air conditioner, both window and central units.
 
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mudman

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**** Ike..Thatt's a load of information. thanks so much for your help. I will have to get my pen and paper out and do the math here. I see generators on GL all the time, I have no idea what watts, volts, KW, or any of that stuff means for me. I have no well but if SHTF, I might need to hook up at my buddies ranch and he has a well. As of now power would be for, heater witch is gas, freezer, refer, a few lights, I would be on the candle and flashlight, lantern, system most of the evenings, water heater is gas, dryer is elec, it would not be used (clothesline), washer is elec. it might be used some. Any way thank you some much for your time on this matter. I'm gong to do my hme work and really see what I need. I would like to get a military unit if possible.
Ken
 

quickfarms

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Where I grew up we had frequent but short power outages, usually they only lasted a couple of days.

The generator was run about 6 hours a day to keep the fridge and freezer cold and charge batteries, run the well and hot water and baseboard heating. The generator was usually run from 6 to midnight every night.

Most of the cooking was done on the barbecue, it was natural gas at the time but is now propane. Both my dad and I keep an extra full tank on hand.

A lot of military and larger generators supply three phase power which is used commercially. Residential houses use single phase power.

Another thing to think about is how are you going to connect the generator to your house? One option is to use extension cords. Another option is to have a transfer switch installed.

It is a lot to research and think about.
 

Isaac-1

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Ok, if your wanting to do minimalist and are looking at military surplus, you will likely be narrowing yourself down to the 5 KW MEP-002 or 3 KW MEP-016 family.

The MEP-016 family all share the same 3KW 3600 rpm 2 pole generator end, and break down as follows:

MEP-016a or MEP016c - Older gasoline powered using a fairly non fuel economic Military Standard Engine, these were mostly built in the 1960-1970's (could be converted to run on natural gas or propane, there is also a 5KW MEP-017 in this family)

MEP-016b (also known as MEP-701a when in an ASK housing) - Powered by a single cylinder diesel built by Onan, it is electric start only (for all practical purpose this engine was only used on this generator and nothing else of note), these were mostly built in the late 1980's and early 1990's, and share very little other than the generator end with the a or c versions (different frame, gauges, etc) Overall good and solid, but engine parts are hard to find.

MEP-016d - is a 21st century life extension program MEP-016a or MEP-016c where the gasoline engine has been replaced by an L70 series single cylinder Yanmar Diesel (there is some variation in these, but most seem to be pull start with electric starters, but no on board battery)

MEP-016e is a 21st century life extension program MEP-016b where single cylinder Onan diesel is replaced by an L100 series single cylinder Yanmar (which has pull and electric start)

The retrofitted Yanmars are generally considered the best of the bunch, as parts are easy to get and they are very close to their civilian cousins (biggest difference is the 24V electrical system), they are much lighter than the Onan's and are a bit more fuel economic. (around 100 pounds lighter and probably 10-15% better fuel economy), these are not cheap department store 3KW generators, my Onan powered MEP-701a weighs in a just over 500 pounds.

The other prime contender is the 5KW MEP-002a 1800 rpm 4 pole generator which is powered by a militarized Onan DJE engine, the Onan J series engines were built from the late 1950's through the early 1990's, so parts are out there, but still cab be a challenge to find depending on what you need. Running at 1800 rpm the MEP-002a tends to have a more pleasant tone than the lawnmower pounding like sound of the MEP-016's at 3600 rpms, it also has a longer time between rebuilds at 5,000 hrs vs I think 3,000 hours for the 3600 rpm MEP-016's. The slower engine speed can also make it a bit more fuel economic depending on the exact output load. You will find MEP-002's built by several contractors, they are all the same, built up from the same parts, and at this point are likely mix and match anyway after going through numerous rebuilds.

Be ware of anything else out there, there may be a few other options that started life as APU's, but most others out there will be in relatively useless voltages, in particular be ware of the 400 HZ paperweights unless you have a radar system or avionics system you want to power they are useless, except perhaps as parts donors to repair their 60 HZ cousins.

Ike

p.s. all of the above have a selector switch and can produce either 120/208 3 phase or 120/240 single phase (some of the MEP-016s were built to only provide 120/208, 120V or 240V, but not 120/240V, these can easily be modified with the addition of a single jumper wire to produce 120/240V, doing so disables the function of the selector switch), also I think the MEP-002's without ASK weigh in around 850 pounds.
 
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derf

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Of the kinds generally discussed here:

Diesel is by far cheapest to operate. The 5kW and larger Diesel MEP gensets operate at 1800RPM which makes them much less "thristy" than their gasoline 3600RPM cousins.

To run your average whole house with central AC - MEP-003A 10kW
To run most of your small house stuff and some window units - MEP-002A 5kW
These are not man portable but can fit on a small trailer or in the bed of a pickup.

For basic necessities like fridge and a window AC units or two - the 3kW 016 variants.
The smaller 3kW Diesel gensets are not 1800RPM because of power/weight issues but are more efficient than similarly powered gasoline units, too.

If you have lots of money and don't care about fuel costs then gasoline and/or natural gas/propane are options.

You may want to figure what it will cost to operate after you decide what you want or need to power with the gen. In general MEP gensets will put out 125% of their rated power under normal conditions all day long. So, a 10kW MEP-003A will feed your house 12.5kW of power without a problem for as long as you like.

I don't deal with the gasoline versions so I'll let others comment on them except to say it is my understanding that the consumption is much higher than the Diesels.

 

storeman

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Ike,

I knew there was some reason I was rescuing MEP-002a's.

I have a big house and, fortunately, a 120 volt well pump. By rotating my power draws, I can live forever with a MEP-002a. Stinky armpits included.

Jerry
 
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quickfarms

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Personally I have a MEP 903 B, this is a 10 kw unit powered by a 3 cylinder kubota diesel running at 3600 rpm. I had to build the control box for this unit. This is a very nice unit.

I also have a Magnum 5060KMH light plant that contains a 6 kw generator powered by a 3 cylinder kubota diesel running at 1800 rpm.

Both of these units are single phase and easy to get parts for.
 

Isaac-1

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One thing to follow up on what derf said about the ratings of the MEP series generators, in general they are rated for output at 120 degrees F and 8,000 ft altitude in 24x7 sustained load operation with around a 300% motor starting load capacity for 10 seconds. Commercial standby generators are rated for limited hours per year (I think 150) at max sustained operating service at 86 degrees F and at sea level with a derate factor for increased temp and altitude, many of these same units are rated for prime power use at a 15% output reduction, but still at 86F and sea level, better ones will have a 150-200% motor starting 10 second rating. Most consumer generators are rated at peak output, meaning that a 5KW big box store generator can output 5KW without blowing itself up for a short amount of time (minutes), they also tend to have splash lubricated lawn mower style engines with around a 500-1000 hour service life, and can carry a sustained load of about 2/3 of their rated peak. Some marketing departments are willing to stretch this rating more than others, so the reality is one companies 5KW peak output generator may be better than another's 6.5KW, it is thanks to these sort of practices that you find people saying you need a 5+KW generator to run a refrigerator. Over on the Smokstak Onan generator message board there are known examples of J series Onan diesels running over 20,000 hours between rebuilds, with upwards of 10,000 hours somewhat common.

Ike

p.s. I would love to find one of those MEP-903's in good condition, but they don't tend to show up around here often and when they do they are almost always missing the control box (these were built as vehicle mounted APU's with the control box mounted inside the vehicle)
 
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mudman

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Yes I agree Storeman!! The information Ike has is unbeliveable. This has turned into a great thread.. Once again thank you guys for your time on this.
Ken
 

plym49

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There is one factor not often addressed and that is the speed at which your genset runs. If it has a two pole rotor, then you need 3600 rpm to get 60 cycles. If you have a four pole rotor, then you only need 1800 rpm for 60 cycles. (If you have a lot of poles, then the rpm goes down accordingly and that is why water turbines and some windmills have a lot of poles, but I digress.)

Typically, two-pole generators are used where weight and cost are a concern. It takes more copper to wind a four pole rotor, so the cost of the generator head goes up.

Noise is quite a bit higher for a 3600 rpm unit as opposed to an 1800 rpm unit. Wear and tear on the engine is significantly less at the lower rpm, as well.

So everything is a trade-off. How much power do you need, what can you afford: for a given amount of budget, you can buy an 1800 rpm unit that has less power output than one that runs at 3600 rpm.

We can't tell you what to decide but we are trying to lay out all of the factors that should be considered.
 
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Generator selection

Hello and good day to all. Reading your post reminded me of myself about two years ago. My area was getting ponded by snowstorms and I was having that unsettleing feeling of being without power in the dead of winter. Plus the telephone pole in front of my house has been broken twice since I moved in.
After reading alot of the posts on here about the diffrent generators peple were using and what other people used I decided that an MEP 002 was a good fit for me and my needs.
Fotunetly I didn't need it during the snowstorms but last year when hurricane Irene came through it sure was nice to have my 002. I lost power around 3 am When I got up in the morning I had almost five inches of water in my basement. So on went the rubber boots and grabbed my multimeter to make sure I had no power in the panel. After confiming this,I opened the main breaker in the panel,started the generator let it run at operating speed for a few minutes then stated suppling power to my house.
When i closed the breaker on the genset my percent meter shot up 30%. That was running two sumpumps,the freezer,two refrigerators,and energizing everthing else. (240v configuration) I wanted to avoid a wet stacking issue so I turned every light on in the house and every room. I was still pulling only a 20% load. When the sump pumps went on a little more.
I ended up using less than six gallons of diesel all day. Statred at about 9 am and ran till 9:15 at night when my utility power came back. It chugged right along all day and didn't miss a beat. It was kind of nice being the only person on the road with power while the rest of the neighborhood was as dark as coal.
Another problem did occur from that,you may want to consider. As the roads were reopened and other areas were still without power reports started coming in about thieves driving around and staling peoples gensets that were unattended. An 002 with batteries goes just under 1000lbs. Not something easily stolen
Good luck metalworker393
 

Speddmon

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Not pertaining to the OP's question, but in reference to metalworker393's statement...

Wetstacking is a cumulative affect, if you are running the set for back-up power or even just giving it a monthly workout, you don't need to be concerned about wetstacking so much. As long as you give it a good heavy load once a year for an hour or so, or even every 6 months depending on how much you operate it unloaded in between you'll be fine.
 

Isaac-1

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One thing to keep in mind about wet stacking is that some designs of diesel engines are more susceptible than others. In general air cooled normally aspirated diesels like the smaller MEP series generators under 15KW tend to be the least susceptible, and water cooled (particularly turbo charged ones) units tend to be the most. The MEP-004 and MEP-005's are notorious for their wet stacking problems, some are so bad that they will start showing signs after just a couple of hours of light load operation, and must be ran at near full load about one out of every 5 or 10 hours to keep the problem under control.

Ike
 
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