Why so many start issues?

[edpdx]

I have to revive my post of 9/20/11 as yesterday I drove from Portland to Eugene and got a no start situation. I had to be towed home $500!

I have a 28MT starter that has been running fine on my daily driver M1009. I had already done the Doghead mod long ago. I carry a spare relay so I changed that in first. Also checked my GP card's contacts- looked great. I pulled the starter and applied juice with a jumper cable from both 12volts and 24 volts it spun but did not advance the starting gear into where the Flexplate gear would be. Installed on the Blazer I didn't even get that... only the sound of the solenoids.

I reread my previous postings just now and had questions about what some members believe the problem to be. My original post and two responses follow:

under the dash. I have replaced my batteries with two new ones. The GP card is new from Antenna Climber.

I have been driving it for months since I cleaned the GP card contacts  with sandpaper and inserted the new GP card. But today, out-of-the-blue,  I turned the key, the WAIT light came on for 6-7 seconds as usual. I  turned the key and get gauge lights and a soft snap (the gp relay?) then  the loud snap of the starter relay behind the dash. I found that if I  hold the key in the START position a millisecond too long that I also get this kind of Ned Beatty squeal?

Just removed all the battery cables and cleaned them. The Batts tested  at 12.55 each, so I expect that this is enough juice to crank the  starter. Pulled the red wire from the rear battery to the junction block  near the GP relay. It has a good connection. The pink and green leads  on the IP also got a scrub down.

The Doghead relay was swapped-in 6 months ago and seemed fine all this  time with the exception of an occasional no crank, followed by a crank  and start immediately after. I see this  condition asked about frequently on this forum; but have yet to see a  definitive cause listed. Since the ignition circuit seems to be the only  circuit involved, why is the culprit so illusive? I have replaced  batteries, GP card, starter relays, and invested a lot of time in this  same problem last time it happened. It mysteriously disappeared after  installing the new GP card last time; but I don't think that was the  true problem.

Has anyone here truly narrowed the problem down to a failed component, or cause ever?

JERSEY 4X4: I had a starter die on my(Delco) after almost 10 years and went the  cheap route of one of those eBay 28mt clones and now am on the third one  in about 5 months.  What happens is the button in the solenoid gets  burnt or corroded(Both happened) and you get the click and no power  across the large terminals of the starter to power the armature.  I just  got my brand new Delco starter today and it will be on tomorrow and  mine will never do that again.   Easy to test with volt meter or just a  jumper wire with a light bulb on the armature side of the starter  solenoid.

acesneights1:It is unlikely that the wire is broken in the harness. Not saying it  can't be but usualy they break, deteriorate in exposed places. If you  have power at the starter sol, the starter is toast, If you have no  power at the starter sol then go back to the doghead relay and test  there. Obviously since you did the mod, you understand the wiring, I  hope...:beer:
If you have no power there on the 12v key side, probably the ign switch.  If no power on the 24v constant then you need to trace that back. If  you have power everywhere on the sol it's supposed to be then it's in  the harness or connector...

Why do these (mine anyway) go through starters? Is there supposed to be more regulation to the starter? From what jersey4x4 stated: "What happens is the button in the solenoid gets burnt or corroded(Both happened) and you get the click and no power across the large terminals of the starter to power the armature."
The juice carbons build up to prevent the strap from the solenoid to deliver a charge to the starter proper. How can this keep happening and yet no one here seems to address it as a known problem? Is this not what the problem IS?

4 starters in two years as many relay for the doghead mod, and tow bills. I have got to:

figure out the problem and eliminate it OR
switch to 12 volts ( I hate this) so I can control the firing of the starter>

Please help- my wife wants me to sell all my trucks and get a Challenger

 

[cpf240]

Just a thought.. what is the condition of your battery cables and terminals? Ground cables and connections? 24v feed to the starter? Perhaps one, or more, is not up to specs and a loss is happening. If so, maybe causing the starter to draw more current then it should, resulting in arcing inside the starter solenoid, and the aforementioned carbon build up.

I haven't done it yet, but I am planning on replacing all my battery cables and the feed to the starter with heavier gauge cables. I'm sure the original cables were fine when new, or at least met the minimum spec, but after close to 30 years, not so much!

 

[dstang97]

What starters are you putting in this thing? Brand? USA or china?

 

[edpdx]

There was a 12v Delco in the first time it started doing this (bought the Blazer this way). I replaced it with a caltric from ebay. It was a gear Reduction model. It started to act up the same way, with intermittent failures so I ordered a Wilson 28MT to replace it. A few months later it went out as well. I sent it back for warranty replacement and stuck the Chinese Caltric model back in on the off-chance that it would run until the Wilson replacement came in. I had not changed it out- instead I put the Wilson on the shelf... until today. I am going to put it in next; but my experience is that the Blazer in stock 24volt is hard on the starter for some yet, unknown to me, reason. I need to figure this out or rewire the 24 volt system away. Even with a 200 mile premium AAA tow policy I would still have an enormous bill if I had to be towed out of the sticks. I don't mind taking extra parts with me; but I am not sure if it is the starter or not.

 

[southdave]

Sounds like your starters are bearing the brunt of weak gp system or IP pump?
do have to crank alot to start? mine spins for 1.5 seconds or less before it starts..

 

[edpdx]

Starts right up if its not too cold out; but I know I have a few glow plugs out.

 

[dstang97]

Why not switch to a OEM one? Then be problem free.

 

[mistaken1]

Just what cpf240 said. If your wiring and connections are bad they drop voltage along the way meaning the starter does not see the full voltage it is supposed to see causing higher current flow (more heat than the starter was designed for and higher current than the contacts were designed to break).

If the PO took the truck in water a lot ...... look what happens to cars that get flooded, the wires get water inside the insulation and then that wire corrodes creating higher than normal resistance in the wiring itself.

Another common problem is a corroded wire (read high resistance) that ties the two batteries together. Both batteries charge independently so the only time that wire comes into play is during the 24V glow plug cycle and the 24V starting cycle. Simply measuring voltage on the batteries will not show a corroded wire as the current draw of the voltage meter is negligible.

You could measure the voltage drop on that wire when the starter is engaged (one lead on each end of that wire and read the voltage which should be 0v then engage the starter and read the voltage at that time. It should still be 0v or something in the milli-volt range).

Have you measured the voltage at the starter when it is engaged?

Load test the batteries? Same thing, it could read good with a meter but under load (starter engaged) the voltage could drop below what it would be on a good battery.

 

[islandguydon]

Also of note. The battery connection between the battery's, The series connection battery cable should be double the normal connection size. I find this cable gets hotter than the final connection. I found this small change does wonders.

 

[Hasdrubal]

I second the "switch to OEM'" route. Get yourself a 27MT, rebuild it, mines been cranking strong for 6 years now. They are well engineered components. All I hear are failure stories about these gear reduction chinese specials. Junk it.

 

[edpdx]

So far I have heard that the resistance in the battery cables may be the culprit because they may lead me to longer start times, meaning more contact abuse in the starter or starter solenoid, which as we all know is sealed and not easily diagnosed. As far as this problem goes I guess ideally we would have remote solenoid, ala Ford, that could easily be changed and make this problem minor as spares are easily carried and swapped in. Since I know of no such arrangement I will bolster the wiring across the batteries and the big cable to the Starter Solenoid. Is there any recommendations for wiring these new cables? Gauge size, terminal types? I read that the Battery cable that connect front-to-rear battery should be bigger than the stock 8g?

So shopping for new cables tomorrow. What about the other wire that goes to the Solenoid "S" term? Replace it with what?

So new cables. Hvae a 28MT 24v Starter by Wilson that IS going in tomorrow... but this is the last one! If the new cables and all new Glow Plugs don't result in shorter start-up times- eliminating the abusing of solenoid that has apparently put me where I am today, then the next thing to do is go to the "M1009 Conversion to 12-Volt system" by Roscommon Electric. I hate to do it because I like to keep things stock; but I also hate all the bills I have racked up on starters, shipping, down-time, and towing with the 24v system I am trying to preserve-ironically, it's killing me.

If there is a general consensus as to what ailment causes these other than those already given, by all means suggest them and I'll pursue them. THANKS!

Forgot to mention... "return to OEM" saw this at 1A Auto: "This is a gear reduction starter which is the most common type of starter after the mid 1990's. Gear Reduction starters have transmission gears from the starter motor itself to the output gear that meshes with the flywheel. This allows the starter motor to be able to turn over the engine faster and with less effort."

I was under the impression that the Gear Reduction starters were the $#;+ so I went to them... now I am hearing that I ought to go back?

 

[Terracoma]

I read that the Battery cable that connect front-to-rear battery should be bigger than the stock 8g?

Per the schematic in the TM, it says the inter-battery cable is supposed to be 4-gauge in stock form.

Which seems odd, considering the rest of the high-current cabling is all 2-gauge...

 

[southdave]

if have tractor supply get weld leed cable and the lugs can be had there too.. it cheaper and better cable less resistants

 

[edpdx]

All the battery cables need to be replaced or just the one between the two batteries and the one that runs to the starter?

 

[cpf240]

All the battery cables need to be replaced or just the one between the two batteries and the one that runs to the starter?

As mistaken1 said earlier, you could measure the voltage drop over each cable while it is under load. Ideally, it shouldn't be much.

I'm planning on replacing all of mine one of these days...

On that note, anyone have suggestions for what battery clamps to use? Are the military-style clamps really that much better? I'm just thinking that there is another contact point, place for corrosion and resistance, etc. using those clamps and then attaching the cables via terminal ends and wing nuts.

I was looking at these clamps though...

Military Battery Terminal and Boot Sets - MilTermKit001

 

[Terracoma]

Are the military-style clamps really that much better?

Better, in that you can easily disconnect the battery cables without having to loosen the terminals.

Apologies to the OP for any thread drift, wish I could be of more help with the starter woes. I replaced all of the cabling in my truck except from the 24v bus bar down to the starter solenoid, which I'll swap out whenever my current starter needs removal or servicing. I stayed with the stock-sized cables and didn't notice any change in the engine's starting habits.


...

 

[edpdx]

Man the welding cable seems to run from about $1.79/ft to about $5/foot. Anyone got a line on what is the best kind? It seems like some of the 2g cable is more pliable. What kind do I need. Where can I get it at a good price.

 

[dstang97]

I highly doubt it is your battery cables. Have you put a meter on it? I think it's just bad starters.

 

[stampy]

Does your starter have the bracket attached? Sometimes it is missing and I heard that puts more stress on the starter and causes failures too.

 

[edpdx]

dstang97,

I highly doubt it is your battery cables. Have you put a meter on it? I think it's just bad starters.

Not yet its been pouring and snowing the last 72 hours. I will check the cable though. I just thought I better replace the one that goes to the starter and the one that connects the two batteries anyway. The Anderson connector I put on the battery to starter solenoid cable has saved a lot of knuckle shredding, so I'll be sure to put it in on this cable change again. I have it just above the cable bracket on the chassis before it disappears under the under-carriage.

Stampy says:

Does your starter have the bracket attached? Sometimes it is missing and  I heard that puts more stress on the starter and causes failures too.

Correct bracket is in place and secure.