Best PTO option for powering hydraulic pump on winch truck?

[rchalmers3]

Hi all,

I have a winch truck that I am considering installing a knuckle boom on, behind the cab. This past week I have been searching and reading threads about people adding hydraulic operations to the deuce, mainly for operating a dump bed.

Given what I have read about the outcomes of using an electric power head, I believe I will be better off installing a PTO system that offers a higher capacity of flow than what is offered by the 24v power heads I can find on the 'net.

The options I know of for my winch truck are either a rear facing tranny PTO mod or a transmission PTO. My inexperience brings me to ask the question of which option is best.

Because I don't work around larger equipment, I don't know what pieces are available or how common these PTO options are in general. Therefore, I wish to open a discussion about what PTO option:

** Will be the easiest to source and install
** Does not adversely clutter the air pack area or other frequent service areas
** Fits where space considerations are considered optimal for plumbing
** Offers the option to mate the pump directly to the PTO vs. running via shaft
** Has available controls that look like they belong on a deuce
** Are available at a price that is considered comparatively affordable

It may be that one type of PTO is better than another, but without having been around these old trucks that much I just don't have a clue.

I look forward to hearing your opinions.

Rick

 

[gringeltaube]

Rick; my answers to your Q's., in that same order...

1): Both units in question are scarce but available. While the (used only) T-case PTO comes up in the classifieds once in a while; a take-out transmission PTO-rear output-accessory drive (TAD) behind the winch PTO would be very hard to find, but can be purchased NEW (made overseas) from a known vendor.
Both units are std. bolt-on equipment and just require having the linkage and some wrenching to be installed.
A good alternative (in either case) is installing a small air cylinder and dash mounted switch, for PTO engagement.

2) and 3): TC PTO over TAD, anytime!

4): None of them are built or intended to function with a pump directly bolted on. Forget that; you will need a DS in any case.

5): For both options, installing the original linkage does not require any mods. and thus will look (and work) like factory installed. It may be much more difficult, to find every single piece for the TAD, in order to have a complete setup...

6): Depending what you call affordable... ? I would say both options will run about the same, mucho $$$; and if you can get either one for under 500.- complete and in good working order you are lucky.

In my case, having every option on hand, I'm going the TC PTO-route to power the pump (for a M977 crane behind the cab of one of my Deuces..., inspired by Spicergear, of course!)

G.

 

[nf6x]

I was just about to post a similar thread about my M923 when I saw this! I'll still go start my own thread since I'll be asking about a different truck, engine, transmission, etc., but I'll also be following your thread for any interesting insight.

 

[jrobinson5093]

how about a belt driven hydro pump. I have used them several times on one ton trucks to power verious things Thats what I want to install on my deuce to power the stock winch.

 

[m16ty]

I was just about to post a similar thread about my M923 when I saw this! I'll still go start my own thread since I'll be asking about a different truck, engine, transmission, etc., but I'll also be following your thread for any interesting insight.

I do have a t-case PTO that will fit the M939 trucks. PM me if interested.

I'm using a t-case PTO to run the dump on my deuce. Pumps can be had fairly cheap (less than $300) from places like Northern Tool. Driveline parts can be had at NAPA or Tractor Supply. I did have to make a flange to mount the commonly found driveline to the flange on the T-case PTO. Here's the link to my setup- http://www.steelsoldiers.com/579857-post21.html . The pump I'm using is 20gpm if I remember right.

 

[rchalmers3]

A good alternative (in either case) is installing a small air cylinder and dash mounted switch, for PTO engagement.

Gerhard, good of you to remind me of an elegant solution! Is it possible to source an air cylinder that has an internal spring to pull the PTO engage lever back when air is released?

2) and 3): TC PTO over TAD, anytime!

Having reviewed Ty's dump conversion photos, I agree that the TC PTO keeps the air pack area clear. The TC PTO seems to be most favorable. But the cost? Vamo a ver.

4): None of them are built or intended to function with a pump directly bolted on. Forget that; you will need a DS in any case.

Too bad, it would be another elegant solution, although Ty's thread about his dump conversion mentions the need for the pump to be below the tank, so a direct mounted pump on the TC PTO may not work anyway.

how about a belt driven hydro pump.

I am not excited about hanging another accessory off the motor, especially with the drive train power taps available being currently discussed. Where do you intend to place it and what is the GPM of your selected pump?

I'm using a t-case PTO to run the dump on my deuce. Pumps can be had fairly cheap (less than $300) from places like Northern Tool. Driveline parts can be had at NAPA or Tractor Supply. I did have to make a flange to mount the commonly found driveline to the flange on the T-case PTO. Here's the link to my setup- http://www.steelsoldiers.com/579857-post21.html . The pump I'm using is 20gpm if I remember right.

In the thread you mention it's a 11GPM unit, unless you happen to have upgraded afterwords.

Ty, please school me on the hydraulics you installed: Is the air system strictly for placing the valve in a remote location? Could you have mounted a manual valve within reach instead? Gerhard has a manual valve that I assume is also 3 position (Gerhard??) that would seem to suffice except for having to plumb hydraulic hoses into the cabin.

The knuckle boom I'm considering has it's own valving system, but your dump hydraulic system is interesting to me. I have almost no experience in hydraulics so this conversation is a steep curve for me.

Rick

 

[jrobinson5093]

I would put it just above the alt. It has a electric clutch much like a ac compressor. so unless it was engaged it would not use any power, but I dont remember the gpm rating right now.

 

[nf6x]

In the thread you mention it's a 11GPM unit, unless you happen to have upgraded afterwords.

I think that was me that mentioned 11 GPM. That's what I recall reading in the LVS truck manuals about the supply provided to their cranes, and I'm considering using one of their cranes for my knuckleboom conversion... even though the crane itself would eat up over half of my 5-ton's cargo weight rating!

 

[ODdave]

I did have to make a flange to mount the commonly found driveline to the flange on the T-case PTO. Here's the link to my setup- http://www.steelsoldiers.com/579857-post21.html . The pump I'm using is 20gpm if I remember right.

Fwiw, You do know that a winch driveshaft flange bolts to that flange right.

 

[m16ty]

Fwiw, You do know that a winch driveshaft flange bolts to that flange right.

Yea I know. Making a flange and buying the driveline parts at TSC is cheaper than buying a winch shaft though.

Rick,
The air setup is just for the valve. The valve is spring centered inside the valve. With the air switch I installed, when you pull it out it sends air pressure to one side of the cylinder and moves the valve to the raise position. When you push the switch in it sends air to the other side of the cylinder and moves the valve to the lower position. When you move the switch to the middle position it exhaust all air and lets the valve's internal spring move it to the neutral position (hold). The valve is just a standard valve (I removed the lever before I mounted it). It's just like G's valve other than mine is remote mounted. Air cylinders like I used can be bought on e-bay for about $10.

You could use a similar setup to operate the PTO. You wouldn't even need a return spring. Just have it set up where the cylinder pushes it one way to engage and the other way to disengage.

The pump doesn't have to be mounted below the oil tank but your pump will last longer if it is. Lots of factory made equipment has the pump above the tank. The problem is that the pump will starve for oil for a few seconds every time you start it until it pulls enough vacuum to suck the oil into the pump. Pumps can get a lot of wear in those few seconds.