Parallel operation of MEP-002A or MEP-003A, with video

[tstone]

Matt, thanks. I learned a lot from this thread.

Tom

 

[PETE BALLARD]

Great video!! Some time ago I used to work next door to a place that did referb of military units for private label. They had a bunch of units like yours and larger. I got my hands on a 2 cylinder Yanmar diesel and a couple of 5KW single phase generators, i was thinking about doing something sort of simalar, running both gens off one motor. Can i safely get 120/240 volts out of both combined or would i need to run the independent at 120 volts. I suspect only the later?? Again great video!!!!!!

 

[sewerzuk]

Great video!! Some time ago I used to work next door to a place that did referb of military units for private label. They had a bunch of units like yours and larger. I got my hands on a 2 cylinder Yanmar diesel and a couple of 5KW single phase generators, i was thinking about doing something sort of simalar, running both gens off one motor. Can i safely get 120/240 volts out of both combined or would i need to run the independent at 120 volts. I suspect only the later?? Again great video!!!!!!

Interesting...I actually had typed out a response and then had to delete it because realized what you were actually trying to do!
Well, I would say that it is possible. The critical part of this would be making sure that the rotor and stator of each generator are EXACTLY aligned (since you can't adjust their frequencies independently, with them both connected to the same crankshaft). It would also be nice to use a single voltage regulator to control both fields...
If I was doing this, before I connected the two generators together I would run them independently and look at their waveforms with my oscilloscope to make sure they were exactly in phase. If they were off even just a little bit, you would have huge circulating currents that could damage the generator heads, cabling, or the voltage regulator.

edit: there is much more to this; including the type of generator head, the VR you plan to use, etc. There are other options for how to wire these together...almost too much to get into without actually having the generators in front of me to look at.

 

[o1951]

Since your genheads are single phase, if you can configure the genheads for proper voltage, might consider following proceedures in post 43, and connecting them in SERIES!! No circulating currents, no chance of overloading one head if other develops a problem.

 

[sewerzuk]

Since your genheads are single phase, if you can configure the genheads for proper voltage, might consider following proceedures in post 43, and connecting them in SERIES!! No circulating currents, no chance of overloading one head if other develops a problem.

I was thinking about this possibility when I posted my edit...I think it might work, but I had some kind of nagging "what if" in the back of my head.
Just too many variables to say "sure it will work!" Too many possibilities on wiring and control configurations.
It's just the kind of project I'm interested in

 

[Triple Jim]

In parallel the generators are locked together. Even a small phase difference causes the two to try to match each other. In series, I would think that the tendency would be to go to 180 degrees out of phase and produce zero power. What would make them want to stay out of phase so the output added up? If it's two generators on one engine, then OK, but if it's two separate motor-gens, then I don't think it's going to work.

 

[sewerzuk]

In parallel the generators are locked together. Even a small phase difference causes the two to try to match each other. In series, I would think that the tendency would be to go to 180 degrees out of phase and produce zero power. What would make them want to stay out of phase so the output added up? If it's two generators on one engine, then OK, but if it's two separate motor-gens, then I don't think it's going to work.

I THINK that's what he intended to do....two 5kw single phase generators connected to one engine. I agree...two sets NOT mechanically connected would not work in this manner, not without some uber-complicated electronic throttle control on both engines.
It would be a fun project...not something I have ever seen, but I guess I can't come up with any reason why it won't work. Its way cooler to have two 5kw generators in parallel (or series) powered by the same engine than it is to just go buy an -003a!
I've been using my Lister flywheel engine and ST gen head as backup power for my shop recently. Why? Because it is a really cool generator!
Pete, if you decide to attempt this, let me know. I'd be happy to give some advice!

 

[o1951]

but if it's two separate motor-gens, then I don't think it's going to work.

Don't even try it with 2 different engines. Genheads have to be identical and locked together. As I said follow Sewerzuk's post 43 to align rotor and stator on single shaft. Each VR keeps it's genhead at 120.

 

[PETE BALLARD]

i think that's what he intended to do....two 5kw single phase generators connected to one engine. I agree...two sets not mechanically connected would not work in this manner, not without some uber-complicated electronic throttle control on both engines.
It would be a fun project...not something i have ever seen, but i guess i can't come up with any reason why it won't work. Its way cooler to have two 5kw generators in parallel (or series) powered by the same engine than it is to just go buy an -003a!
I've been using my lister flywheel engine and st gen head as backup power for my shop recently. Why? Because it is a really cool generator!
Pete, if you decide to attempt this, let me know. I'd be happy to give some advice!

you da man!!! the reason i was thinking about this was that i have the parts - currently not being used for anything but taking up space. And it would be earier to just go get a 003, but what the heck? Why not. I have an addiction for small gen sets but the wife says no -no, not here, too much noise. But i say who cares if your house is a beacon in the night. Afteral that is why god made mufflers - i thought. Thanks for the advise and will be in touch soon. Again great video!

 

[Triple Jim]

Ok, thanks o1951, now I understand what you meant, and it's very interesting. Sewerzuk, I'm not sure I go along with two 002As being cooler than one 003A, but then I'm old, and like stuff to just work. When I was your age... (yada yada yada)

SZ, I saw your YT video with the sudoLister belt driving the generator and it is indeed really cool. I've actually never seen one with electric start before. It sounded like a starter motor and not the generator running as a motor like my old Onan boxer does. When I was four years old, I'd watch the motor and transmission that drove the kiddy rides while the other kids were waving to their mothers and fathers. If anyone doubts this, I have 8mm movie proof.

 

[ETN550]

Interesting...I actually had typed out a response and then had to delete it because realized what you were actually trying to do!
Well, I would say that it is possible. The critical part of this would be making sure that the rotor and stator of each generator are EXACTLY aligned (since you can't adjust their frequencies independently, with them both connected to the same crankshaft). It would also be nice to use a single voltage regulator to control both fields...
If I was doing this, before I connected the two generators together I would run them independently and look at their waveforms with my oscilloscope to make sure they were exactly in phase. If they were off even just a little bit, you would have huge circulating currents that could damage the generator heads, cabling, or the voltage regulator.

edit: there is much more to this; including the type of generator head, the VR you plan to use, etc. There are other options for how to wire these together...almost too much to get into without actually having the generators in front of me to look at.

I agree with your assessment IF both generators of 120 output each were being combined to produce a single circuit 120 at 2x power. However, to produce 240/120 from two 120 generators I believe they only need to be fairly closely phased and one lead from each tied together as a neutral. The potential between the remaining leads would be 240. A common regulator would work until there was an imbalance on the 120 sides. It would be best for the regulator to sense the 240, still questionable as to success with unbalanced loads. However, the small MEP-016B, E and 701A are 6 lead machines with voltage regulation only sensing one coil, the T1-T4 coil. These machines operate in a 240/120 mode connected in a zig zag configuration. I don't have a scope and have not seen waveforms but the voltage variation between legs does not appear to be terrible when loads are not balanced or only one sgnificant load is on one leg. I imagine there are induction effects that work to help level it to some extent.

 

[Ckav8r]

Fantastic! We used the same light bulb indicator when paralleling the 3 40kva generators on the Boeing 727!
Do you have a schematic for the wiring?
Thanks for a great informative video.

 

[dangier]

Not to segway too far, but the dual power head is possible. I have a Generac pto 120/240 generator that has worked good in the past. Put probably 160 hours on it during power outages. Downside is it ties up the tractor powering it.

As you can see from the picture with the end bells removed, the rotors are in sync. They were a few teeth off from sync when I got the unit, but worked well. Did not notice a difference when I moved back into sync. Do not know about the internal wiring, as I have never traced it. Does have control transformers.

 

[dangier]

I have never put an oscilloscope on it, but my battery ups does not like the power output and will not switch to the generac unit in post #53. Voltage and hz are correct and everything else takes the power ok. Ran house with the new to me 002a last week and the ups took the power ok.

Now back to the original programming....

 

[ClintA]

that was so cool, my hats off to ya. Would you know where I could find a Governor Linkage for a 002A?
?

 

[metalworker393]

Matt that's another great video. Do you plan on doing any more video's on the 002 & 003 machines? My cousin still has he 002 I lent him during Sandy. I have a problem starting it with the throttle set at 1800 rpm. If the throttle is at idle speed it will start, then go to operating rpm and will run. I bought new glow plugs to put in it I just haven't had time to get over there and change them. Other than that I was thinking perhaps the IP could be off slightly. You have any plans on making a video on how to time the IP on these Onan's? Take care and keep making your video's. There interesting to watch even though I don't have the big machines like you do. metalworker393