Need Assistance with 20ton Garwood Winch on my M818

[Makincold]

So I'm trying to get ready for the Ga Rally and decided it was time to pull the winch and figure out why the drag brake wont work (or be adjusted to hold the drum) and the clutch handle goes past the de-tent (de-tent ball and spring fell out)

Like the rest of the truck, the winch was rebuilt in about 2006 (evidence of lots of new parts, bolts ect) so I don't seem to be dealing with a 50 year old worn out winch


So the drag brake first
While on the truck we used the TM procedure to try and set the drag brake, but didn't get very far. The large adjustment screw that puts pressure on the spring that puts pressure on the spring, that puts pressure on the small brake “shoe”that puts pressure on the winch drum was screwed all the way in and you could still turn the drum by hand and the cable would “bird nest”. So I have a block of wood jammed in the back to hold thecable drum since the rally
The brake shoe and spring are new(verified when I took it apart yesterday) but screwed all the way in,you still cant get enough pressure to hold the drum
Any ideas on this one??????


Second issue is the clutch handle seems to move to much past what I assume to be it's stops
This caused the ball and spring to fallout since they are not captured by the “shifter lock assembly”
The pics are taken while the end of the winch housing is removed from the winch, but it did the same thing while mounted on the truck
Is there a common problem that might be making this happen?

So the pics are "engaged", "dis-engaged" and "past the stop"

You can also see the drag brake and how far it sticks up in the housing, but still not enough pressure to hold the drum

Looking for some help so I can have this back together before the rally. Found out last year, a 5-Ton without a winch is useless without another 5-Ton


Thanks!

 

[Makincold]

No winch experts?

 

[crasheej]

I think they are going to let you figure this one out on your own.

 

[gungearz]

Use the search function....

 

[73m819]

So I'm trying to get ready for the Ga Rally and decided it was time to pull the winch and figure out why the drag brake wont work (or be adjusted to hold the drum) and the clutch handle goes past the de-tent (de-tent ball and spring fell out)

Like the rest of the truck, the winch was rebuilt in about 2006 (evidence of lots of new parts, bolts ect) so I don't seem to be dealing with a 50 year old worn out winch


So the drag brake first
While on the truck we used the TM procedure to try and set the drag brake, but didn't get very far. The large adjustment screw that puts pressure on the spring that puts pressure on the spring, that puts pressure on the small brake “shoe”that puts pressure on the winch drum was screwed all the way in and you could still turn the drum by hand and the cable would “bird nest”. So I have a block of wood jammed in the back to hold thecable drum since the rally
The brake shoe and spring are new(verified when I took it apart yesterday) but screwed all the way in,you still cant get enough pressure to hold the drum
Any ideas on this one??????


Second issue is the clutch handle seems to move to much past what I assume to be it's stops
This caused the ball and spring to fallout since they are not captured by the “shifter lock assembly”
The pics are taken while the end of the winch housing is removed from the winch, but it did the same thing while mounted on the truck
Is there a common problem that might be making this happen?

So the pics are "engaged", "dis-engaged" and "past the stop"

You can also see the drag brake and how far it sticks up in the housing, but still not enough pressure to hold the drum

Looking for some help so I can have this back together before the rally. Found out last year, a 5-Ton without a winch is useless without another 5-Ton


Thanks!

1 -- My drum clutch is like yours, when disengaged is past the detent, my lockout prevents engagement, I guess a worn shifter fork or shift collor is the cause.

2 -- The drum brake is there so the drum DOES NOT free wheel when the cable is pulled while the drum clutch is disengaged, The drum LOCK holds the drum from turning when the drum clutch is disengaged. My guess is that since the drum brake was set so tight it is flat worn out, as it is designed to only put a slight drag on the drum.

 

[Squirt-Truck]

Well a couple of thoughts.
First, the drag brake, sounds like the spring is weak, shims work, but I would only recommend 1/4" at first placed into the bottom of the brake pin. (Actually the post that holds the spring.) YOu should be able to applu sufficient pressure to prevent the drum from beina able to be moved by hand, do not run it that tight, jsut enough to prevent the drum from free spooling till PULLED by hand.

ON the clutch handle. It is very common for the key on the handle to shaft or the shaft to fork to shear, or just get loose. I do not see any paint broke at the handle to shaft (picture 4) so I suspect the fork to shaft connection. Take some pictures of the fork to shaft connection and let us see.

 

[clinto]

I think they are going to let you figure this one out on your own.

I suspect that's because not many people have ventured this far into their winch.

Use the search function....

I have no problem telling people to search and I do it a lot; enough that surely in a dark corner of the web someone has called me a Search Nazi.

But, that being said, I am pretty good at searching and I couldn't find any threads covering the OP's issues. The only thing I found that's remotely close is this:

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?50273-5ton-winch-repairs/page2

So you telling him to search must mean you have a thread out there in mind or memory that covers these issues. I'd like to see it and just think-what a feather in your cap it will be to find the thread clinto couldn't!

1 -- My drum clutch is like yours, when disengaged is past the detent, my lockout prevents engagement, I guess a worn shifter fork or shift collor is the cause.

I've seen makincold's truck and the winch, I think it's a full rebuild, but how far do you have to break it down to inspect the fork?

2 -- The drum brake is there so the drum DOES NOT free wheel when the cable is pulled while the drum clutch is disengaged, The drum LOCK holds the drum from turning when the drum clutch is disengaged. My guess is that since the drum brake was set so tight it is flat worn out, as it is designed to only put a slight drag on the drum.

The brake shoe and spring are new(verified when I took it apart yesterday) but screwed all the way in,you still cant get enough pressure to hold the drum

I wonder, since the brake is new, if the drum is worn down. I find that near impossible to believe, but if the brake shoe is within spec, something has to be going on.

 

[Makincold]

Thanks Clinto, I am somewhat of a "search Nazi" myself. I subscribed to the thread you mentioned months ago (I have been planing the removal and repair for months), but like you said, it doesn't really cover what I'm having issue with
As for the fork and shift collar they are NEW, the fork is still painted green and barely has the paint worn on the fingers (see picture)
I firmly believe this winch was rebuilt in 2006 and NEVER used till the 2011 SS Rally in GA. In Fact I'm pretty sure Squirt truck has operated it more than me, and I know it has only been used once when he wasn't standing beside the truck. I have read the TM and have had Squirt truck "winch 101" class
But I digress....

Squirt-Truck:
With the drag brake screwed ALL the way in the cable will bird nest as soon as you disengage the drum lock. Thats why we never actually got to the TM procedure to adjust it, couldn't get past "step 1"
The weak spring is what I was thinking, seemed strange to me since it is new, but thats why I had planned to try a shim
I have also been thinking since the cable is new its like a "spring", its stiff because its never been used (hardly) and is may be contributing to the problem
As I was taking pictures last night I think i see another reason this may be happening. Either the drum is NEW (like everything els....) or they painted the ends of the drum when it was dissembled
Look at the pic of the end of the drum, I think thats red chromate primer. I think it loaded or "gummed" up the brake shoe and provided no friction. before I try the shim (which is easily done with wthe winch assembled and on the truck) I'm going to wire brush the side of the drum and remove the paint and make sure the brake shoe is clean too (also note the bright shiny surface where the seal runs, fresh out of the rebuild shop)
Also note the oil on the brake shoe came AFTER disassembly (don't ask me how...)

73m819:
I understand the purpose of the drag brake, have read the TM, Thanks





Clinto, Squirt-truck, 73m819:
As for the fork, I see no signs of damage on the fork itself, or to the shaft you can see the shaft pretty good in one of the pics, and several of the fork, everything looks straight

 

[Squirt-Truck]

I agree on the contaminated brake shoe, shims and springs are a post assembly effort.
On the clutch handle. with the dog clutch fully back into the housing does the handle properly align with the detent ball?
Does the handle align with the engaged position when the dog clutch is fully engaged or is it overshooting in either direction?
Is there ANY loose motion between the handle and the fork?
If it overshoots then we may have a clearance or shimming issue. There are no adjustments, the setting is what the key s in the clutch shaft are cut at.

Let us know..

 

[Makincold]

With the dog clutch fully back in the housing (and against the thrust washer # the clutch handle is PAST the de-tent over shooting
To be in the "dis-engaged" position with the clutch handle the clutch is I'd say a full half inch above the thrust washer in the end housing (see pic)



There is NO (zero) free movement between the handle and the fork, very solid

I'm also curious about a part shown in the TM Diagram
The dog clutch (#6) has a part beside it without a number or description

In the post Clinto references (above in the post) there was a PDF from Memphis equipment that is more of a photograph than a drwaing and it does not show this "extra" or phantom part




I knew the handle position is set with key/keyway on the shaft


More later, work is getting in the way of my free time...

I agree on the contaminated brake shoe, shims and springs are a post assembly effort.
On the clutch handle. with the dog clutch fully back into the housing does the handle properly align with the detent ball?
Does the handle align with the engaged position when the dog clutch is fully engaged or is it overshooting in either direction?
Is there ANY loose motion between the handle and the fork?
If it overshoots then we may have a clearance or shimming issue. There are no adjustments, the setting is what the key s in the clutch shaft are cut at.

Let us know..

 

[Squirt-Truck]

I think the part that you are referring to is simply a poor representation of the fork engagement grove in the dog clutch.
In order to address the issue, I see no problem in placing a filler shim behind the dog clutch to prevent overshooting the disengaged position.
If fully engaged does the handle overshoot the detent? That is the direction that is important to be all available.
Check that and onward we go. . . . .

 

[crasheej]

I say that Squirt-Truck is right about the Tm drawing.

 

[Squirt-Truck]

Guys,
Where are you on the winch?
Updates, we need updates.

You do not have an option on not being one of the heavy recovery trucks at the rally.
Dumpster has finally gotten a rope for his winch, but two winch equipped 5-tons are better.