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dual brakes or split brakes on an M39 5-ton

m816

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As soon as you guys get finished re inventing the brake system, Get one on a truck and post lots of pictures. Please keep it sinple. I have three M39 series trucks and have had my share of brake problems. So I would sure like to see a good mod for the trucks. I favor a split M/C over any thing else. Most vehicles use something simular. and I think it would be the easiest to install. I would not want to split right and left sides or even think about adding extra brake cylinders to each wheel. Too much work. If having either the front or rear brakes fail and just having some stopping power to the surviving axel would get them stopped that would work for me. Then It could be stopped safely and towed to the shop without anyone getting hurt. Patiently waiting for superior minds to solve this problem.
 

Robo McDuff

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I am reviving this thread. Just checked my brakes, parked 15 months ago with at least enough Dot 5 in the master cylinder reservoir to brake. Now, the entire master cylinder is completely empty! No idea where the stuff went. With several brake problem threads around, I think it’s worth pursuing this; I don’t want to end up with a 10-ton truck running wild without brakes: too many small children and other people around.

I will get deeper into this in the coming days-weeks, but just a quick one to ponder.

Making a dual system means getting a dual master cylinder and a second air pack, maybe even additional air tanks etc.

There are two other options; did anybody ever go into this before I try inventing the wheel again?

1) Why not get a complete dual master cylinder with vacuum booster and put a small electric vacuum pump on it. Advantage: instant brakes and less extra air stuff. Probably the quickest, easiest and cheapest way to do it.

2) More elegant and interesting, did anybody ever look into a hydraulic brake booster. In newer diesel cars and some gassers some of these systems now run a hydraulic booster which uses the power steering hydraulics as source. Advantage again is that you directly have full brake power. This method is more complicated to set up and parts are more expensive. Another advantage can be that it mostly comes with an extra reservoir that is filled with nitrogen. The trucks hydraulic pump fills the reservoir against the nitrogen. If the engine dies or your lines brake, you still have residual braking power in the reservoir (the hydraulics being pushed back by the nitro). The hydraulics of the booster off course is a separate system as that of your brakes, so no mixing occurs and if your brake lines go down it does not influence your steering.

I would like to get into this and work out if this is possible but before I start invest a lot of time on this, did somebody already tried this or has good arguments to shoot it down before I start?

Emergency brake.
I saw a very simple and elegant solution how they used a simple air brake unit to power the emergency brake – parking brake. Using the handbrake regulates the air brake unit which activates the parking brake shoe. This is a must for me as well. Engine off automatically means brake fully engages, and much more power on your emergency brake.

How to split
For the moment, I am with Ron on this, front and one middle wheel as first and rear and other middle wheel as second unit. Combined with remote brake fluid reservoirs and a good warning system, this seems the safest quick solution. The best still would be to change the front brakes into a double cylinder system, so you can have rear and front up as one unit and middle and front down as second unit. That needs a lot more work, material, and figuring out though, so for the moment we will try keep it simple.
 
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Robo McDuff

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Revival of thread, I unexpectedly have a 10 day deadline to get this done.

Another thought, someone posted a pic of a HYD FUSE for air craft, it senses pressure loss and shuts down the line to prevent fluid loss, this was brought up in the deuce brake thread, why could this not be incorporated into the split brake 5t system conversion, a FUSE for each wheel, so other then a major line loss, you would ONLY loose the breaking of one wheel if you lost a wheel cylinder. A wrecker or loaded dump or for that matter any loaded 5t needs All the breaking it can get.
Ron, that was this post by outcast and then further expanded on in this post:

As it has already brought up, Just wanted to add to it

This is out of a 737 Aircraft Tech manual. Kinda thinking this is the way I'm going to look more into.

Hydraulic Fuses.
These are essentially spring-loaded shuttle valves which close the hydraulic line if they detect a sudden increase in flow such as a burst downstream, thereby preserving hydraulic fluid for the rest of the services. Hydraulic fuses are fitted to the brake system,

This could work against a sudden, extreme loss of fluid, as in a ruptures line. Should be combined with a remote dual reservoir that can be easily topped up and has a warning buzzer for when the remote reservoirs go below a certain level, to warn for slow leaks before something ruptures AND a better emergency brake (maybe air assisted?). IF you have that, your single system is a lot safer, maybe even save enough to stay single

The one question is where to put those fuses. The first thing would have to be to replace all fixed lines, and then place the fuses where it makes sense.

The next question is to figure out the right fuses for this system to avoid false positives. That brings us to a potential problem: price. Could not find much on that yet, but I saw some starting at $30 a piece, some forums mentions closer to $100. That might add up with 6 fuses in the circuit. Might be easier to install but not necessarily cheaper.

First thoughts for location of fuses
Most simplest: three fuses close to the Air Pack each controlling the main line to an axle.

Front
If behind the split block towards each wheel: you will keep more braking power but if a flex line or cylinder goes while braking hard, you suddenly get all braking power to one side and you swerve or might even role over. Losing both front wheels might be preferable and definitely easier, just put the fuse directly behind the Air Pack.

Rear
First thing I would do is split the lines as close to the Air Pack as possible, so you will have two circuits going backwards (not sure but I think they split further backwards). Then, per circuit, put the fuses directly behind the split block or at least before the flexible line. Again, might be better to lose both wheels per axle as one wheel on one side, although certainly with the middle axle the results of losing only one wheel braking would be less dangerous than in front.

Alarms
you need to be warned that your system is not 100% anymore. That means with fuses (regardless if dual or single system) they must somehow warn when they come into action because they work quick enough for your low-reservoir warning to be not activated. That feature, if existing, might add to the cost per fuse.

In contrast, with a dual system without fuses a buzzer on the reservoir will tell you one system is low and out.

For me here in the Czech Republic, I definitely will look into the fuse idea. There are no 5-ton parts and not much scrap yards with pick-up or truck parts around here. So it means driving to the Netherlands or paying crippling shipping costs.
 

Robo McDuff

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hydraulic fuses 5-ton brakes

Some links to hydraulic fuses

general

another one, more specific

Below some prices. I do not have any idea if these specific fuses are applicable for a vehicle brake system but at least it gives an idea about prices and the sites provide other info out their functioning as well.

http://www.hydraulicstore.com/index.php?loc=items&data[history]=&data[catalog]=1&data[grp_id]=8030

http://www.vonberg.com/pricing_return.html?id=3&seriesID=48&img=51


The biggest problem I see is that most of the simple ones do NOT have a warning system or it is not possible to see that they are engaged. Have to go deeper into that. I will go to my hydraulic company Tuesday, will ask.
 

Tow4

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Thanks for sharing this info Robo McDuff,

I like the idea of the hydraulic fuse. I think one on each axle would be fine unless you were heavily loaded. A model that has a switch to activate a warning light would be the ticket.
 

Robo McDuff

In memorial Ron - 73M819
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Just thought about a few things:

1) if you split the system, each circuit services only half of what it used to be. Does that mean a smaller air pack?

2) dual MC. With the vacuum assisted and the hydro-booster systems, the booster is BEFORE the MC: the pedal influences the booster which pushes the MC which services the brake cylinders. With the 5-ton (and old Deuce) single system the booster is BEHIND the MC: the pedal pushes the MC which pushes the Air Pack booster which services the brake cylinders. How does that influences which dual MC you can use to replace the single MC from the 5-ton?

3) Hydro-fuses. Would be good maybe to instal some fuses on the air lines servicing the air connections to trailer or a pulling vehicle?
 

Squirt-Truck

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This would be a neat project.
Just for my bit on how to split.Simple, both front brakes and the rear axle, intermediate axle is alone. In failure mode, rear has fronts to support, since rear axle unloads in braking. If other failure, intermediate axle loads during breaking so it is more effective. This does not take into account the inter-axle propeller shaft which will share some of the braking with the other rear.
NEVER split left and right, that is a major control issue and if in a brake depleted situation will only be worse.
Sprag allow front axle to rotate faster not slower than rears, will not be a problem.

Thoughts?
 

hndrsonj

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Your hyd fuses will not prevent a loss when sitting.

Has anyone looked at the Memphis air brake conversions? How hard would they be to replicate?
 

Robo McDuff

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Squirt truck, I always thought that the middle axles where a bit "hanging in the middle" and therefore fractional less crucial than the rear rear axles. So a next way to do this. Hope people will chime in with why this or that (or even better, why definitely NOT).

Split options equal braking after failure:
1) front axle against two rear axles
2) front and rear against middle

Split options unequal braking
2) front and one middle against other middle and rear
3) left front right middle left rear against right front left middle and right rear (zigzag)

Perfect if possible: make dual brake cylinders front (but probably a pipe dream)
5) upper front both sides and middle against lower front both sides and rear.


Your hyd fuses will not prevent a loss when sitting.

Has anyone looked at the Memphis air brake conversions? How hard would they be to replicate?
A remote alarm-rigged brake fluid reservoir will warn against that so you do not go out on the road at all when that happens. The fuses are for an emergency situation while braking on the road.

As to conversion to air, that should be a different thread. For most, its either too complicated and expensive or too far a modification from the original (or both). With me, going air would be relative easily and cheaper (cheaper parts here) but very problematic with the law and I like to keep the truck as original as possible. I will look into it once we start on taking the brake system apart.
 
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Robo McDuff

In memorial Ron - 73M819
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Not sure which master cylinder you would have to use, have not looked into the M35 split brake system too deep yet.
 

OC455

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This is what I am want to check into too. I know M35 owners have done the conversion with the A3 brake systems. Didn't know if the master cyliner from an A3 would work for the M39 series 5 ton as well.
 
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