LDS VS LDT and the real differences

[Djstorm100]

Thanks guys!

Both are just as reliable as the the other?

 

[rustystud]

Talked with Tracey tonight. He gave me some more information that is rather enlightening. It seems the military had Hercules use a different crankshaft in the early 1980's to cut down on cost. This crank was made from 1548 tool steel. The cheapest tool steel available ! This could explain some of the problems people have had with there bottom ends going out. There is no way to tell from just looking at the crankshafts either. It takes a metallurgical exam to tell ie: cut off a sample. The normal crank is almost indestructible, being made from 4140 forged steel. We also talked about the cam issue Andy had in his engine. He agreed it was due to the slow oil pressure buildup. He mentioned that the pressure regulator should have a check-ball which should keep oil in the galleys, and that many engines he had checked had this check-ball removed. This is the regulator under the Turbo, mounted on the out side of the engine . I again asked about what it would take to make 300 HP reliably . The rod bolts must be replaced with the newer 12 point ones. The head bolts replaced with the "ARP" ones. (just call them with the spec's needed, they have them in stock under a different application). The injection pump should be replaced with the "Stanadyne" 627 or 629 4 roller pump. The turbo should be replaced with the 3LM466 turbo. For even more power you can have "Vogel" engineering regrind your cam for $300.00 to any spec you need. Just tell them what turbo and injection pump your using and the RPM and EGT's and Compression your running and Horse Power you want to run and they can custom grind your cam to a modern grind. He told me his neighbor had modified his "White Tractor to make over 300HP to crush corn using these same mods I mentioned. He says it has been running over 16 hrs a day for the past 3 years now.
For those who don't know who Tracey Varns is, he runs a "White Tractor" in the tractor pulls that makes over 5,000 HP. He started out modifying his stock engine which is almost the same engine our multifuel is. He has decades of experience in modifying these engines. He also has personal friends in the engineering department at the Hercules manufacturing plant. That is how he found out about the crankshafts.

 

[gringeltaube]

It sure would be nice to be able to convert our 134 hp LDT's to put out 250 hp at least, and be more reliable at the same time...
Someone should start offering the "MF-Performer-Base-Kit": reground cam (& lifters?); correct rod bolts; stronger head studs; main bearings.




G.

 

[Jeepsinker]

All that concerns me with doing that is losing the multifuel capability.

 

[brianp454]

I wouldn't worry about that. The multifuel capability comes from the combustion chamber design, head design, high static compression ratio, chemical compatibility of parts, etc. You're not making changes to the base design, only making mods or improvements to that allow it to generate more torque at higher RPM, thus higher HP!

All that concerns me with doing that is losing the multifuel capability.

 

[59apache]

I'm not shure about this..
As far as i know, the OE injcection pump is able to handle thick fuel , like motor oil.
Second point is the compression ratio.
The MF has a high ratio , newer diesels has a significant lower ratio.
This should verified before some money goes into the MF.

 

[red]

Motor and veggy oil will work in diesels with 17:1 compression (Cummins 6bt's) without engine issue. The fuel system is more sensitive to the oils than the multifuel is though.

Where the compression ratio comes into play with upgrading performance is the amount of boost. Higher compression engines won't survive the high boost levels of the low compression engines. Take the 6.5 diesel for example. 22:1 compression, with upgrades can handle 30psi boost max. Cummins 12 valve with 17:1 compression, with upgrades 100psi and higher.

The goal of 250hp reliably is attainable. More efficient turbo, studs, maybe cam.

 

[red]

Losing the ability to burn straight gasoline might be lost with the increased air from the higher boost and more efficient turbo. Ability to burn oils though won't be lost.

 

[rustystud]

Losing the ability to burn straight gasoline might be lost with the increased air from the higher boost and more efficient turbo. Ability to burn oils though won't be lost.

I agree with you RED , the ability to burn the oils will still be there since we're not changing the compression ratio (22:1 just like the 6.5 diesel) . Going with the better Turbo will also help since we will be bumping up the fuel. More fuel needs more Turbo to keep the EGT's down. As far as the Stanadyne pump being able to handle the oils, a lot of guys are already burning waste and Veg oils using the Stanadyne with no problems. The biggest boost to my confidence in wanting to do this is that Tracey mentioned people who are already using his mods on their tractors now with no problems.
He also gave me the number of Brad at "Maibach Tractor" who can help anyone who wants to hop-up there engines. Brad's number is 1-330-939-4192 ext. 203 .
The cam mod is not needed to make the 250HP to maybe 300HP . With the cam mod though Tracey said we would be getting better fuel economy while making better horse power.

 

[JasonS]

Talked with Tracey tonight. He gave me some more information that is rather enlightening. It seems the military had Hercules use a different crankshaft in the early 1980's to cut down on cost. This crank was made from 1548 tool steel. The cheapest tool steel available ! This could explain some of the problems people have had with there bottom ends going out. There is no way to tell from just looking at the crankshafts either. It takes a metallurgical exam to tell ie: cut off a sample. The normal crank is almost indestructible, being made from 4140 forged steel. .

Was that Hercules only or White as well?

 

[m16ty]

The info should cover all the brands as they are the exact same engine.

 

[rustystud]

Was that Hercules only or White as well?

This information came to Tracey from his engineering friend at the Hercules plant. Was White making engines for the military at this time ? If so then they probably also would be using the cheap cranks.

 

[JasonS]

This information came to Tracey from his engineering friend at the Hercules plant. Was White making engines for the military at this time ? If so then they probably also would be using the cheap cranks.

White would have been making engines for both the military and their tractors (apparently from 1976 to 1988 http://www.tractordata.com/farm-tractors/000/5/7/570-white-2-155.html )

 

[JasonS]

This is interesting and suggests that the military crank was much heavier than the tractor. Maybe the weaker crank was the one from the tractor and ended up being used in the military apps to save $?

http://forums.yesterdaystractors.co...=5065861&sid=4f40daad6c9d1a860646e04727244a1d

 

[welldigger]

White owned hercules through the 80's. It would seem from what I can gather that continental was first to make the multifuel. Then hercules, and then white/hercules. It wouldn't be unreasonable to speculate that white started using the same crank for both the tractor and truck engines.

Whether that was a decision by the dod or white attempting to streamline parts production is another question.

 

[Jeepsinker]

If that were the case you should be able to see the difference between the two if you lay them side by side.

 

[JasonS]

There are two different td blocks.

 

[Jeepsinker]

One has extra webbing on the back of the block around the freeze plug.

 

[rustystud]

If that were the case you should be able to see the difference between the two if you lay them side by side.

According to Tracey you can see no difference. He had bought 10 cranks for his pulling tractor. After modifying them he found out about the different materials used. So he sent in samples of each crank. Six where the 4140 and the other four where the 1548 material. He decided since he had already paid to modify them he would use them. The 1548 cranks would only last one pull. He still is using the original cranks in his 5,000 hp engine, but he tests each one to make sure they are made from 4140 material before modifying them.

 

[Jeepsinker]

I was commenting regarding the use of the lighter tractor crankshaft. It would stand to reason that it would be at least slightly visibly lighter. As far as the material is concerned I know you can't tell the difference by just looking at them.