New O rings on HH ... truck no start.

[oddshot]

Not really off track, just a progression of a trouble shooting conversation.

Actually ... we're just killing time until the parts (i.e., new HH) arrive. I will be checking the timing tomorrow in the AM when its a bit cooler, but that's about all I can do for now.


soanyoldways, as for when humankind was capable or producing the precision machinery required to build fuel injection pumps ... I'm thinking one hundred years ago we were just getting there. From wikipedia:

1910s

• 1910: The Norwegian research ship Fram was a sailing ship fitted with an auxiliary diesel engine, and was thus the first ocean-going ship with a diesel engine.
• 1912: The Danish built the first ocean-going ship exclusively powered by a diesel engine, MS Sealandia. The first locomotive with a diesel engine also appeared.
• 1913: The US Navy submarines used NELSECO units. Rudolph Diesel died mysteriously when he crossed the English Channel.
• 1914: German U-boats were powered by MAN diesels.
• 1919: Prosper L'Orange obtained a patent on a prechamber insert and made a needle injection nozzle. First diesel engine from Cummins.

Variable venturi, constant depression carbs (S.U. carbs and etc.) require a fair bit of precision machining. These were developed and produced in the early 1900's.

 

[frank8003]

I'm thinking one hundred years ago we were just getting there. From wikipedia:

1910
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0dIJgPW8-s

and just for fun ......................... that is what all this is about...........
At Augsburg, on August 10, 1893, Rudolf Diesel's prime model, a single 10-foot (3.0 m) iron cylinder with aflywheel at its base, ran on its own power for the first time. Diesel spent two more years making improvements and in 1896 demonstrated another model with a theoretical efficiency of 75%, in contrast to the 10% efficiency of the steam engine. By 1898, Diesel had become a millionaire. His engines were used to power pipelines, electric and water plants, automobiles and trucks, and marine craft. They were soon to be used in mines, oil fields, factories, and transoceanic shipping.

 

[Woodsplinter]

Not really off track, just a progression of a trouble shooting conversation.

Oh, so that's what you call it...

 

[colt]

ok I have a similar problem my o rings were leaking at the hydraulic head ,removed the head replaced the o rings and installed the head again.

after reinstalling the fuel control valve for the shutoff cable, I tried to put the timing window cover back over it and it would not clear to get the screws in.

Do I tried to flip the control valve over and it cleared but I don't think it seated all the way down
I think it might have be hitting some thing stopping it but I got fuel to the pump but nothing out
I think I can fix the no fuel issue ,by making sure that the control valve is moving what its suppose to in the hydraulic head

In the process of doing this the control have retainer broke ( the little bridge piece that has the 2 screws with safety wire)

I have not had any luck locating a new retainer (the bridge like piece) please let me know if anyone knows where I can get one from thanks

 

[Jeepsinker]

Hard to understand what you are saying with absolutely zero punctuation... Maybe you can edit to help us understand what you need?

 

[rustystud]

1910
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0dIJgPW8-s

and just for fun ......................... that is what all this is about...........
At Augsburg, on August 10, 1893, Rudolf Diesel's prime model, a single 10-foot (3.0 m) iron cylinder with aflywheel at its base, ran on its own power for the first time. Diesel spent two more years making improvements and in 1896 demonstrated another model with a theoretical efficiency of 75%, in contrast to the 10% efficiency of the steam engine. By 1898, Diesel had become a millionaire. His engines were used to power pipelines, electric and water plants, automobiles and trucks, and marine craft. They were soon to be used in mines, oil fields, factories, and transoceanic shipping.

This post makes my point. The injection pump of today (Hydraulic Head) was not a viable option commercially until the 1940's. Sure there where Diesels made but they did not use an injection pump like ours since the ability to machine such tight tolerances in a mass produced product was not available. If you study what they used to introduce the fuel into the cylinder you will see it is quite crude by todays standards.
Yes this thread has taken a turn around the corner ! Just makes life more interesting, you'll never know what is around the corner

 

[colt]

Does any one know where I can get parts for the ip on a 1971 m35a2

 

[gimpyrobb]

Does any one know where I can get parts for the ip on a 1971 m35a2

What parts? I have some. You might want to post in the classifieds "wanted" section.

 

[colt]

I am trying to find the control unit retainer (the bridge piece that is held in by 2 screws and safety wire inside the timing window cover for the hh).

Also if it helps this thread I got mine started
The problem was the control unit in the wrong position
Make sure the tiny piece is in the end of it (it come out real easy)
I turned mine sideways (laying flat) and installed it in the 6 to7 o'clock position
If I remember correctly if its in right you should be able to turn the lever from about 3 around to 2 o'clock positions

 

[oddshot]

The timing is correct.

I ordered a new HH from CHINA last Friday. I was figuring I'd see it by the end of the month but it was waiting for me when I got home from work. 6 day shipping and no charge.

anyoldways ... I'm getting pretty good at pulling the HH out. I ripped out the old and banged in the new. I had to give it a bit of help with some brake clean ... but it started up and ran at pretty good for about 10 mins. I shut it off ... gave it a little time ... and it fired right up in about 1/4 turn like back in the old days. So I let it idle while I changed out the out side door handles.

And then ... after about 5 mins at idle, the idle became a bit erratic. If it were a fuel injected car, I would say it was "hunting". The idle will drop to about 200 and then rise to about 900. And it does it over and over. Henry smokes a little, not much, but now I noticed that it would give a puff of dark smoke out the stack every time the idle would climb. Not a lot ... just a puff.

I haven't looked or searched for anything yet. I'm tired and getting cleaned up, eat and then to bed. It's been a REAL long day.

But it started and is running.

No. I have never turned up the fuel. Henry always has idled nicely and given me what I consider good power. I haven't installed a ETG yet and don't like playing hopey-pokey. But something tells me I'm going to have to turn him up a little to deal with the new HH.

 

[Jeepsinker]

I hope there wasn't any trash in it that ended up in the injectors. Did you check the fuel line ports before install?

 

[gimpyrobb]

No test drive yet I'm guessing?

 

[oddshot]

No test drive yet I'm guessing?

Not yet. Work and other stuff happened. I did start it cold yesterday. Fired right up. I ran it for a while and everything seemed OK.

I'm back on it tomorrow. (Tuesday)

 

[oddshot]

Well, I just got home from a 4 mile walk.

The engine starts great. Holds an idle about 850 just where it always ran.

Once it reaches temp, it begins to hunt at idle ...200 to about 900 rpm. Turn it off, let it cool ... its starts great and hunts as it warms up.

Since it never died while sitting, I figured I take it for a little test run. I live in a very hilly spot which would give it a good work out and reveal any faults.

The power is as good as, if not a little better than before. Just motors up the hills. Pulls clean to about 2300 rpm in any gear ... which is all I'll run it. It will hold 2200 steady up any hill I could find.

However, If I got off the fuel, it would hunt (or surge, if you prefer) at idle.

I came to a stop sign and it stalled but started right up.

I figured I should head for home. Pulled into a parking lot to turn it around, it died and wouldn't re-start.

I'm letting it cool off and will go back and give it another try with some brake clean.

YES the in-tank pump is running. YES I can hear the return flow into the tank.

It was running when I parked it 6 weeks ago. Started right up and gave good power.

All I did was my normal annual maintenance (drain and flush tank, fresh diesel, new fuel filters) and install 3 o-rings.

I have a feeling that I bought a HH for no reason.

 

[cattlerepairman]

So a main symptom is hunting at idle.
Is the fuel turned up and/or the FDC bypassed? If so, was the droop screw adjusted as well? If not, it could/would affect starting and idling.

Then there is the governor. It sits underneath the FDC. I do not know much about it, other than that it is a spring loaded oily thingy, but at least one other person suspected it of being the cause for his problem: http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?68162-Governor-Inspection

Is the shutoff lever in the right position when the cable is relaxed? I had mine engage far enough while driving to shut the engine off (on right turns only)...No start. removed the HH before I figured out that it was the darn shutoff lever.
When you get back to the truck, do not do anything but take the shutoff cover off and take a good picture. Compare with where the lever is supposed to sit in the "run" position.

That's all I got....

 

[oddshot]

Its now about 2 hours later. I let the truck cool down, armed myself with tools, brake clean and a step ladder and had my wife drive me back to try it. Of course, its raining.

... and ... it started right up just like it always did and settled down to a nice 850 rpm idle like none of this ever happened. So I drove like **** to get it home before it died. In second and third Henry pulls right on up to and past the redline ... I've never run him this hard. Really good power and not a lot of smoke.

I got outta the throttle and on the clutch a couple times ... just to see what it did at idle ... and now it stopped hunting.

I pulled it into the yard and let it idle ... steady as a rock right at 850 rpm.

I let it run a good 15 mins ... rock steady ... no problems at all. I just don't get it.

Tomorrow is another day.

I'm going to drag out pressure gauge, pop tester, feeler guages and anything else I can think of. I'm going to check every inch of this fuel system from fuel tank to injector tip (s).

 

[oddshot]

No test drive yet I'm guessing?

Is that a bottle of Black Label your friend is pouring?

I haven't had a taste of Scotch in over 25 years ... but right now I am being SORELY tested!!!

 

[oddshot]

Is the shutoff lever in the right position when the cable is relaxed? I had mine engage far enough while driving to shut the engine off (on right turns only)...No start.

BINGO ... maybe.

I KNOW the lever is free when its cold. I checked that a MILLION times. BUT ...

I Let it warm up and pulled the cover. The lever is "less free" and almost binding when the engine is hot. I remember from the TM that there is a spec clearance between the shaft and that copper colored retainer. There was a LOT of clearance with the old HH, so I didn't think I had a reason to check it again. Sure enough ... there is hardly any clearance when cold and less when hot.

I'm not sure why anything changed ... maybe the shut off plunger sleeve is just a bit bigger on the new HH. But, I think this might just be it.

We'll see in the morning.


UPDATE

FROM TM9-2910-226-34, Pg. 3-86:


C. Refer to figure 3-150. Aline the control rod end
with the hole in the control unit lever (A) and install re-
taining pin (B) as shown. Refer to figure 3-151, Install
control unit retainer (A) and secure with two assembled
washer screws (B). Torque tighten screws to 18-23
inch-pounds. Clearance between retainer and control
unit shaft must be .0100 to .0250 inches. Secure screws
with locking wire (C).

 

[welldigger]

Back the 2 screws on the bridge piece just a tick each and see if that makes a difference.

 

[oddshot]

Back the 2 screws on the bridge piece just a tick each and see if that makes a difference.

I checked the clearance between the shut off lever and the retainer when cold and got a tight .010. Pulled it apart and removed .010. Now, when cold I have .020 clearance. It started right up, I let it run to get to operating temp and rechecked the clearance ... it closed up to about .016 hot. So I reassembled it and let it idle ... and in about 20 mins ... it started hunting just like before.

I pulled the cover off and sure enough, the lever was stuck. As soon as I barely touched the lever, it jumped into the forward position. I checked the clearance ... Still at about .016.

So I pushed the lever rearward and sure enough i was able to get it to hang up. As welldigger suggested, I just backed off a touch on the rearmost screw ... and the lever wouldn't hang any more ... so I backed off the front screw a like amount, and installed the safety wire and cover. I started it up (it caught right away) and settled into a nice 850 rpm idle. So I let it run for about 1/2 hour ... no more hunting.

So I took it for a rode test and drove it about 30 miles. It runs as good as it ever did ... maybe just a touch more power. I noticed I could go up certain hills a touch faster than I used to.

BUT ... if I stopped for a stop sign or traffic light after pushing it up over 53 MPH ... as soon as I stepped on the clutch and off the throttle ... it would hunt (200 to about 900 rpm) about three times ... then settle into a nice idle. I made a couple stops out on the road and shut it down completely just to see if it would restart and it started right away ... every time.

I'm going to take another touch off of each of the screws and see if that makes a difference ... but I have a feeling if I just left it alone, it would probably just settle down and wear in by itself.

I'm calling it fixed.