Deuce Winch Issue - grinding under load

[BrianScott777]

My deuce is a workhorse doing daily beach pull outs, mud pull outs etc. My winch doesn't pull well at all. Yesterday I was pulling out an F250 Super Duty that was resting on its frame. Normally no problem. This time though, extended about 70' of cable, put it in low range, released the drum brake, engaged the front clutch and put the pto into low. It began to spool until tension. Once the weight of the opposing truck was fully on the cable, it stopped pulling and made a noise similar to grinding a gear. Stopped, reset, completed all of the tasks I described to ensure I had done it correctly. Tension, stopped winding and started grinding.

So I unhooked from the stuck truck (a bit embarrassed) and with my partner, spooled the winch back into the drum. Shear pin was and is in tact. It spooled perfectly with no pressure on it. ??? I would think if the gears were stripped, it would not be able to spool at all? correct?

I turned the truck around, backed up to the f250 as close as I could get without getting stuck myself, attached a very heavy rope to the clevis hook, triangle chain to the front hooks of his truck connected to my rope and he popped out like a cork (pride restored).

Back to the winch, good level of gear oil on both sides, no leaking from either side of the spool. Is my winch fried? Any help is appreciated.

Thanks

 

[rchalmers3]

I suggest you first confirm the PTO shaft turns the winch.

Could there e any chance you are mistaken about the shear pin? As in both ends are visible in the yoke, but the yolk is spinning on the winch input shaft?

 

[Jeepsinker]

I agree. I bet the shear pin is actually broken. Remove the shear pin and inspect the work shaft to driveshaft interface. This will require removal of the driveshaft.

 

[jamawieb]

I agree, with the shear pin. There is a worm gear from the pto shaft that goes to a large ring gear. If an internal gear went bad, it would not work at all, it usually shatters. The shear pin may look ok but I bet it's sheered, take some pliers and try to pry back and forth. I have a feeling it will break off.

 

[The King Machine]

Also make sure the handle down on the winch is fully engaged. Sometimes the handle can feel like it's meshed in but in reality its not.

 

[m16ty]

You may not be engaging it all the way with the engagement lever. The shift shaft on these is known to twist (or break) and you can't engage the winch all the way. Have you forced the engagement lever in the past?

 

[Jeepsinker]

Could be the same thing with the pto itself, simply not engaging completely because it got out of adjustment.

 

[gringeltaube]

I'm also inclined to think that something inside the PTO isn't right. Or maybe the woodruff key sheared on the output flange?
We still need to know if the drive shaft stopped turning when the grinding occurred.

Two things could be excluded as possible causes, IMHO:
1) The OP already said that the shear pin is "intact". (Sounds to me like he knows when- and how to check that...).
2) If it was a faulty dog-clutch it wouldn't be a "grinding" noise; more like a knocking, 2x per drum revolution. (It's only two large dogs, to engage).





G.

 

[BrianScott777]

Delay in response caused by internet loss related to the most recent storm. Typing on my phone is ridiculous.
First, the shear pin is in tact. As I stated doing pull outs is a regular occurrence. I checked the shaft and it is still connected and engaged. I've spun my share of shear pins (3 in the last few months) and I keep a ready supply of them in the truck. Further evidence of the shear pin not being the cause is the fact I was able to respool 70' of cable. That is also why I assume the shaft was turning. The grinding sound was definitely coming from the winch which is the basis of my question. It seemed like the gears were not fully engaged. As to the lever on the winch, what I can tell you when I released it it free spooled. When I engage it I manually test it by pulling on the cable until I hear and feel it lock. I can feel it because the drum stops spooling.
I appreciate all of your responses.

 

[The King Machine]

It's pretty robust inside the winch, not many moving parts. Maybe the brass ring gear is roasted, that coupled with a sloppy bearing. Under load loses contact with the worm gear. Honestly I don't know what the **** is happening in there. There is also a couple key ways on the shaft that be minced up, but all this would be protected by the shear pin.

Was it ever run dry of oil?

Pull it and have a gander.

 

[BrianScott777]

As to it ever being run dry of gear oil, not to my knowledge, however I am the 3rd owner. 3) me, 2)A ranch foreman near Conroe Texas, and 1)The United States Army, Amarillo Depot.
It may help if I could find an exploded view of the winch. I only changed on out before and it was destroyed on a friends deuce. Cracked the casing by overspilling to on side.
Is it possible that the two ends, the bearing side and the gear side have become separated over time causing the gear under load to semi disengage? Viewing the gear from the fill hole all of the teath appear in tact. Baffled here

 

[Barrman]

Chapter 18 of TM 9-2320-209-34-2-3 covers the winch.

Put some cardboard or something between the winch and the radiator when you go to pull it. I learned that expensive lesson the hard way.

 

[gringeltaube]

First question remains: does the drive shaft - and so the winch input (worm)shaft, still turn - under load, when the grinding occurs?

If the brass ring gear still is in one piece (plus ALL teeth are there) AND you actually can see it turning while the drum already came to a (grinding)halt, it could only be sheared keys, either inside the ring gear itself, or inside the sliding dog clutch, on the passenger side.

Use a small flashlight through the top fill hole to check movement under load.

The way the drive side end housing is built there is no way for the worm shaft and ring gear to shift apart or even disengage.
That is, assuming the shaft ball bearings are still functional and the housing isn't cracked, of course.




G.

 

[gimpyrobb]

Hook up to something and test it out. Its either in the winch or the pto. If the drive shaft stops spinning, its the pto, if not, its the winch.

 

[BrianScott777]

Thanks for all of your input. As of yet, I haven't been able to determine if the shaft is still rotating when the winch grinds to a halt. Two person job and haven't had an available helper. Now that school is out that will change.
In the interim, and completely unrelated to the winch issues, I had a front axle bearing, wheel bearing and two seals fail on me. So that was unexpected & costly.
While I was at it with the fix, I fixed the e-brake (New cable and spring) and did the fluids, filters, etc.
Does anyone know the name of the part the speedo cable connects to at the transmission? Mine has disintegrated and can't seem to find the part on tnj or mikes.
Thanks for the tm on the winch. I'll keep y'all appraised on the shaft turning or not.

 

[Floridianson]

Don't think it is a problem but I have said in the past people need to check the band load brake when they get a new truck. They can rust up pretty bad so I like to take off the cover and inspect it and since I don't lower or raise loads I back off the band as far as it will go.

 

[rustystud]

Don't think it is a problem but I have said in the past people need to check the band load brake when they get a new truck. They can rust up pretty bad so I like to take off the cover and inspect it and since I don't lower or raise loads I back off the band as far as it will go.

That's some good advice floridianson. I have also had a winch stop working and later found out it was the stupid brake rusted up. Of course that was after I broke the u-joint !

 

[Floridianson]

That would be adjusting bolt #36 band brake #27 and 28 and cover #31 on Gringeltaube post for those new to this winch. I did have one so rusted and tore up I removed the band completely and made a good seal for the adjuster bolt hole that was left.

 

[BrianScott777]

. If the band brake was rusted/seized would I still 've able to free spool? Later respooling by use of the pto 70' of cable? Wouldn't it effect everything not not just under load?

 

[BrianScott777]

Can you link that post for me?