M939 is ownership practical in SoCal?

[NovacaineFix]

I caught this thread a little behind but I would like to throw my 2¢ in, if I may.

Now I know this is a hot topic for those wanting to own and god forbid actually drive a 5-ton in California, but there is some information that is not correct and some that is.The determining factor is going to be the formal use of the vehicle in question and that will support which direction you need to go in order to be 100% legal.

Is the said Deuce or 5-ton going to be used for Commercial use? or Personal use?

You'll have to determine if it is practical for you to go through this, but it depends on which path you take. Like Yoda says "Decisions make, hard they are"

If it is going to be used for Commercial Use, then there is no question or doubt about it, you need the appropriate CDL to accommodate the truck. I just leave it as CDL, because depending on what you are carrying and how heavy it is will determine the type of CDL and Endorsement will be required, simple.

My friend and SS member Blendmaster2002 did a good write up on the restrictions and conditions for heavy MV's used for commercial purposes. You have to weigh your options here, for some, it may be worth it to follow the new California diesel laws, but for most it does not.
Blendmaster2002's write up can be found here:
http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showth...g-Law-and-GL-loadout-info-for-M35-Deuce-5-Ton

Blendmaster2002 and his dad own a few Deuces and they are tagged and road legal.

Personal Use
Now if you are strictly going to use the vehicle for personal use, then there are some options. But remember, personal use cannot be sometimes used for commercial purposes, not without possible consequences.

I own a 5-ton, a '70 M818, and it is fully tagged and road legal in California. It is tagged as a Historic Vehicle and there is no CDL required to drive it. Actually stopped by the local CHP office to verify, but they would not go on record to re-affirm that.
Now, it is not without saying that some municipalities may still stop and question you about the legality of your vehicle, especially if you are doing something you shouldn't be. As long as you are tagged, registered and insured and not breaking any laws including traffic laws, you should be fine.

In my travels for work, I see a few MV's around town. What I did and what Blendmaster did is not just some random couple of guys finding a loop-hole in the CA vehicle codes, but it seems more like the obvious and more important "legal" choice.

Now I see this guy, I never met him personally, but he owns a M920 (I believe, correct me if I am wrong [it has 2 axles in the rear not 3 (?)]). He used to have it set up for commercial use, but it seems that he has went the Historic route as well. I recently saw his truck on the roads with Historic plates instead of the standard California plates. He also has it stenciled as "Not for Hire". I blocked out his name for privacy.



Insurance

Don't worry moderators, not making this an insurance thread, I know that is against the rules. Just explaining what other restrictions may render their decision on owning a heavy MV in CA.

Now if you are planning on driving a heavy MV like a 5-ton, you may run into some issues with insurance coverage. You'll have to check with your agent/company for coverage and restrictions of use. CDL use will be very different than personal, but we can't get into that on here, rules.
There are some threads about this, just use the search bar to find those, but insurance threads are a no-no on here, .

Good Luck and keep us updated on your progress.
Feel free to PM me if you have more questions.

 

[Bhpdbrad]

I wil only give you this to ponder... CA Historic Plates - as with other special plates - only distinguish that the veh is not used Commercially, and is only used for special purposes (i.e. Parades, etc) - and registration fees are less.

The vehicle license plates do not permit just anyone to drive the vehicle unless they are licensed for the Class/Type of vehicle.

Think of it this way... If you have a historic motorcycle - you still need to have a motorcycle (Class M) endorsement on your drivers license to drive your historic motorcycle. Likewise, the 5-tons - with air brakes, 3 axles, and GVWR over 26,000 requires at least a Class B drivers lisense. Here's a link to CA DMV license requirements shown as a chart. https://www.dmv.ca.gov › pubs › lic_chart

 

[NovacaineFix]

The vehicle license plates do not permit just anyone to drive the vehicle unless they are licensed for the Class/Type of vehicle.

Think of it this way... If you have a historic motorcycle - you still need to have a motorcycle (Class M) endorsement on your drivers license to drive your historic motorcycle. Likewise, the 5-tons - with air brakes, 3 axles, and GVWR over 26,000 requires at least a Class B drivers lisense. Here's a link to CA DMV license requirements shown as a chart. https://www.dmv.ca.gov › pubs › lic_chart

Completely understand and fully agree with you. It would be nice if California, like some other states made it easier to discern vehicles better than that chart Like this:


In some States, it is simply put as vehicles weighing 26,000 pounds or less only require what California calls a Class C. Some states are hung up on the air brakes as the requirement for Class A, some are not. 26,001 is the determination point. If your vehicle weighs more than that GVWR, there is simply no way around that, CDL for you if you want to drive legal.
To put it simple, if you have a CDL like a Class A, you have nothing to worry about, it's ,much easier, unless you plan on using the vehicle for commercial. MV's are not your typical vehicle and make up a fraction of the total vehicles on the road, so the lawmakers are not going to spend time to make a special exception for the very few MV's that are on the road.

I have used this example before, and I will use it again.
My M818 is under 26,000 pounds, actually weighs 19,000 and change [I had it weighed]. The place I used to work for, I drove a F700, it weighed in at just over 25,000 pounds, but still under the 26,000 pound rule. What difference is there between the 2 trucks? Before you say it, the 3rd axle. Both were air over hydraulic brake systems, both were diesel, the only difference, my 818 had 4 more tires than the F700.

For my own benefit, I drove to my 818 to the local CHP office, they say, no CDL, unless using it as commercial. They looked at it, loved it. They told me that unless I was breaking some laws, had any rolling or equipment infractions or doing something that could be construed as using it for commercial purposes, they wouldn't even bother with it. But like I said, they will not submit a name or point to a reference point in the Vehicle code that would back you up in court if you were pulled over and sited.
Not saying to not get a CDL, having a CDL if anything is more a benefit to you and the other drivers on the road.

See, I'm not trying to be one of those guys who just tries to look at the law and see what I can get away with. The fact is the law or Vehicle code for this matter, uses broad descriptions that don't necessarily cover for my example my 818. Yes, it has 3 axles, but by definition, it does not fit into the category for a Class A CDL unless it is used for commercial purposes. Commercial being for the strict use if being compensated by either trade, financial or other means for personal gain, as if I were using it for hauling or driving trailers back and forth for a company.
If you ask the DMV, they will point to the same picture and say yes CDL, but when you ask the people that are in charge of enforcing the laws and vehicle code, they say No.

I don't want to hi-jack this thread and make it into a debate to whether it is legal or not. No matter how well it is explained, it is a hot topic here in California and one that does not have a definitive and clear answer.
Unless I get a CDL, sell my 818, the laws/vehicle code changes or I get pulled over and my rig impounded, I will keep driving my 818 as I am now.

Thank you, don't forget to tip your waiters

 

[FASTNOVA]

Thanks Novacaine for that answer. I will back up what you typed in here that California laws can be confusing.
Oh and to the op welcome to the site.

 

[quickfarms]

For my own benefit, I drove to my 818 to the local CHP office, they say, no CDL, unless using it as commercial. They looked at it, loved it. They told me that unless I was breaking some laws, had any rolling or equipment infractions or doing something that could be construed as using it for commercial purposes, they wouldn't even bother with it. But like I said, they will not submit a name or point to a reference point in the Vehicle code that would back you up in court

]

The answer to your question will vary depending on weather you are talking to a commercial officer of not.

How do you not know who was looking at your truck, there name is on there uniform.

When I asked the question the officer pulled the vehicle code out and he read the section to me.

The truth is that they do not typically target our vehicles, but you could get pulled over for any reason and your historic plates could be the reason.

There are many dangers of driving out of class. The biggest one is if, god forbid, you get into a serious accident it is one more thing for the lawyers, or insurance company, to harp on in an effort to get a bigger settlement or out of paying a claim.

The other real problem is the city cops, they are all over the place. I have had some very bizarre conversations with them where they had no clue what the law actually said.

The use, commercial or private, is not related to the drivers license class. The type of vehicle determines the drivers license class

 

[m16ty]

I'll take the blame for starting the CDL debate. I guess I mistakenly thought that the debate was on the deuce and the 5-ton was settled as needing CDL.

I guess the OP just needs to make sure he researches the matter fully. I'll respectfully ask that we leave the CDL debate on this thread where it stands.

 

[lordsporkton]

CDL required for three axles over 6,000 gvw in CA. Yes 6,000 gvw and not the 26,000 that is federal, but a 5 ton is over 26,000.

Carb rules apply if not registered as historic. This means a new engine.

There is no longer a way to register a truck without paying weight fees except historic. To many people were cheating so they got rid of this method. Historic is just that and no commercial use, if you get caught the fees and penalties go back to the day you first registered the vehicle. I went through this nightmare a couple of years ago.

Even though this sounds bad there are a lot of exemptions. A lot of this is federal and CA went to court to fight it and lost so now the Feds have the ability to require every state to enforce the rules. Why do you think Caltrans is now putting up exit numbers on there signs like the rest of the country.

What do you plan to use it for?

What year is it?

I plan to get a CDL class A anyway. I plan to use it for pulling a camping trailer and off-roading. I also plan to modify it heavily which I would assume would make me ineligible for historic license. I'm guessing a quad cab on it and matte black isn't historic. Don't know about year yet, 923a1 or a2 since I want the super singles.

 

[NovacaineFix]

A Class A CDL will help ease any worries for you. Never asked what year your 923 was, if it isn't more than 30 years old, it wouldn't even qualify for Historic.
I'm not too sure on the mods and Historic, I believe it is only the age, and not if the vehicle is period correct, but not 100% sure on that, it may require some investigating.

Good luck with your project whichever way it goes for you.

 

[JohnnyBM931A2]

From what I just read online, Californias diesel smog laws do not apply to vehicles built before 1998. It also states that vehicles with a GVWR over 14,000lbs are exempt.

http://www.smogtips.com/diesel-smog-test.cfm

So it does not sound like deuces or 5 tons are part of the smog law. It seems like the law is mostly aimed at diesel cars and trucks. Someone please correct me if the info on the site I found is not right.

 

[NovacaineFix]

From what I just read online, Californias diesel smog laws do not apply to vehicles built before 1998. It also states that vehicles with a GVWR over 14,000lbs are exempt.

http://www.smogtips.com/diesel-smog-test.cfm

So it does not sound like deuces or 5 tons are part of the smog law. It seems like the law is mostly aimed at diesel cars and trucks. Someone please correct me if the info on the site I found is not right.

It is applicable when using MV's for Commercial, if I read it correctly, but you may be correct on the 14,000 and lower weight exemption.
The link for the ARB descriptions can be found here:
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onrdiesel/onrdiesel.htm

 

[JohnnyBM931A2]

It is applicable when using MV's for Commercial, if I read it correctly, but you may be correct on the 14,000 and lower weight exemption.
The link for the ARB descriptions can be found here:
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onrdiesel/onrdiesel.htm

It actually says vehicles OVER 14,000 are exempt, so all semi's, large box trucks, etc. do not have to meet the smog law. Like I said, it seems like the smog law there is mostly aimed at diesel cars and trucks driven by the average joe.

EDIT: I just took a look at the site that you linked to. Talk about a load of B.S.. Who the h*ll do these people think they are?

 

[NovacaineFix]

This why so many people are bobbing their deuces and 5-tons, another way around the BS I guess. Either that or move to Nevada or Arizona.

Edit:

They are the CARB, they know whats best for everybody, so THEY say

 

[JohnnyBM931A2]

This why so many people are bobbing their deuces and 5-tons, another way around the BS I guess. Either that or move to Nevada or Arizona.

Edit:

They are the CARB, they know whats best for everybody, so THEY say

Yeah.. Yet I guarantee THEY are the one's that will be b!tching when the price of their groceries, etc., go up because trucking companies have to pay to replace every one of their engines. And from what I have heard the emissions stuff they throw on diesels has a negative effect on fuel mileage, so that means everything will also take more diesel to ship ($$$$.)

You literally could not PAY ME to live in Cali.

 

[The HUlk]

I plan to get a CDL class A anyway. I plan to use it for pulling a camping trailer and off-roading. I also plan to modify it heavily which I would assume would make me ineligible for historic license.

Not familiar with CA but I have heard of folks modifying MV and registering them as RV. You may want to get familar with that part of the CA code if you haven't already.

Best of luck.

 

[lordsporkton]

Not familiar with CA but I have heard of folks modifying MV and registering them as RV. You may want to get familar with that part of the CA code if you haven't already.

Best of luck.

I've looked into it but it's not my intended purpose unfortunately

 

[NovacaineFix]

Not familiar with CA but I have heard of folks modifying MV and registering them as RV. You may want to get familar with that part of the CA code if you haven't already.

Best of luck.

That can be a slippery slope with too many legal ramifications I believe. In a sense, you are really falsifying records to a degree. I think the only type of MV's you could get away with this is the shop trucks and expandable vans, especially if you mod them for RV use, but again, not sure that would fly.

For me, I wouldn't try that.

Yeah.. Yet I guarantee THEY are the one's that will be b!tching when the price of their groceries, etc., go up because trucking companies have to pay to replace every one of their engines. And from what I have heard the emissions stuff they throw on diesels has a negative effect on fuel mileage, so that means everything will also take more diesel to ship ($$$$.)

It mostly boils down to politics and money.
If you were a manufacturer and had a product that would either reduce emission and/or increase power, you wouldn't be able to market said product without a CARB registration number. The only way to get a CARB registration number is to PAY a FEE to enable you to market said product.\
Yes there overall goal is to reduce emissions overall, but their methods are somewhat resemblance of some groups that were in power in WWII, if you get my drift.

 

[quickfarms]

It actually says vehicles OVER 14,000 are exempt, so all semi's, large box trucks, etc. do not have to meet the smog law. Like I said, it seems like the smog law there is mostly aimed at diesel cars and trucks driven by the average joe.

EDIT: I just took a look at the site that you linked to. Talk about a load of B.S.. Who the h*ll do these people think they are?

Where did you find that?

 

[lordsporkton]

Not familiar with CA but I have heard of folks modifying MV and registering them as RV. You may want to get familar with that part of the CA code if you haven't already.

Best of luck.

You can definitely do that with the shop or van trucks. There are certain requirements though, such as having a box type body on the back, and you must have certain things like a toilet, stove, bed, etc. I thought about it a while back when I was considering a van body but ultimately im going to have a giant pickup, not an RV and it wont be anywhere legal if i tried that.

Mostly my original question was around making sure my ducks are in a row and i understand what will be needed, things like it appears i need a new engine. I'm not trying to figure out "what I can get away with". I realize this will just be an expensive hobby project and thats OK with me. Right now im calculating TCO on my money pit, obviously something like an engine swap requirement changes initial investment quite abit.

 

[lordsporkton]

Where did you find that?

I too wonder where that came from, i read it completely the opposite. Smog laws for under 14k are pretty lenient in comparison.

This is the carb pdf I was reading http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onrdiesel/documents/FSRegSum.pdf

Depending if you count the GVWR as 22k which is the weight of the truck or as ~32 which is the implied GVWR on the dashboards. it could count as a lighter truck( >14k and <26k) or a heavier truck(>26k) however it doesnt really matter either way since the trucks are all pre 93 so far as I know. If you check the schedule for both light and heavy, they both indicate that a truck of that age requires an engine swap immediately.

 

[lordsporkton]

Also regarding the historic plate suggestions.

https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/?...dmv_content_en/dmv/pubs/reg_hdbk/ch21/ch21_19

It is indicating that the vehicle has to be at least 25 years old but the kicker is "limited to operation or movement over the highway primarily for the purpose of historical exhibition or other similar, noncommercial purposes, such as parades or historic vehicle club activities."

I'm gonna guess a matte black, quad cab 923 going romping through the desert doesnt count.