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Starter problems or more than that?

zeisshensoldt

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Just tried to start my m1009, engine cranked slowly for about half a second then stopped. I attempted to start it again by hitting the push start button and it just clicks loudly each time i push it. I then checked the engine oil and nothing was on the dipstick, so I added a gallon of oil. Tried to start the truck again, hit the push start and it clicked and the switch stuck engaged, switch got super hot and smelled of burning electronics. Any ideas?
 

Mg84648

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It sounds like your batteries are weak. When the battery voltage drops amps increase which gets stuff hot. I think that's how it goes, someone will correct me if im wrong I'm sure. Plus it was a low of 13F up your way in Baaa Haaaba which is pretty brutal on batteries. Mind you I'm just regurgitating info I had read here before so searching for this topic would yield valuable results from guys like Doghead and Warthog.
 

cucvrus

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Your exactly right low voltage makes high amperage and things burn up and over heat. This is why the CUCV OEM starter relays fail. If you get a hint of low batteries charge them or replace them. Most times I just replace them. As many times as I start and stop a vehicle I have no issues with mine. If I need slave cables twice in a row. Load test the batteries and 9 out of 10 new batteries are needed. IMHO that is the problem. About 3-5 years and the batteries are toast. I use them hard plowing and jumping trucks and equipment.
 

zeisshensoldt

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I have 2 brand new batteries in my rig, only a few months old, but i have noticed every morning that the cranking is super slow and im guessing thats due to the low temps here lately. Any idea what might have stuck and burned up when i pushed the switch in the last time i tried to start it?
 

Mg84648

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I should have included Cucvrus in my original reply as a reference. He has over 30 years of real-world experience on the CUCV and he's seen and fixed pretty much every problem you'll ever see.
 

cucvrus

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Be nice. I never seen one with a push button starter. So I am not sure what he has going on. I am only good at OEM design as that is all I ever work on. I know I am boring. But sorry. Without seeing how this is hooked up I can be of no help. IMHO you have something that is not making a good contact or ground. Bad starter also comes to mind. Good Luck. And thanks to you Mg84648 my hat needs adjusted. Temporary in the morning I will be a pin head again.
 

CUCVLOVER

Active member
As far as the push button start I would guesee the button stuck for my first guess. I did have my direct drive start to get slow and die so I swapped it for a gear reduction starter from hillbilly wizard and I am very happy with it. It takes a lot to turn that big diesel over at speed so I think the gr starter is best IMHO.

Cucvrus is the man for stock Cucv help. I think he deserves his own emoji.
 

eme411

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it also sounds to me that this truck does not have a block heater , you need to install a good quality one at the same time you can install some battery blankets , saves your batteries , starter and everything else in the motor that the cold will affect,
 

CUCVLOVER

Active member
They make some patches that stick to hydrolic tanks and oil pans that heat up. http://www.amazon.com/Kats-24150-Watt-Universal-Heater/dp/B000I8TQD6
If you heat the oil it will turn over easier, the heat will rise up through the block and help heat it. This is not the only size or output that's made.
Also you can stick it to the side of the oil pan if you are worried about tearing it off.
Also a clip on light or drop light and heat bulb (NOT LED) will help a lot also untill you get the other done. Just make sure you have plenty of clearance on wires and such.
 

dependable

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I have 2 brand new batteries in my rig, only a few months old, but i have noticed every morning that the cranking is super slow and im guessing thats due to the low temps here lately.
New batteries can be low on charge too, maybe even bad. Only way to know for sure is to charge and load test them.

Otherwise, the worn starter would be a good first guess. The bushings get sloppy and the armature windings rub on the field coils, slowing it down, drawing more amps.

Does the starter switch run a relay? If so, the relay may be bad. If it is direct wired, the switch contacts could be fried.
 

zeisshensoldt

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I had just installed a brand new gear reduction starter 9 months ago and yeah, i do have a block heater, but it runs me about $85-$90 a night to run it, so i dont use it. Also, im not sure if it runs through the relay under the dash or not. I wired it directly into the wiring harness that runs the length of the firewall from driver to passenger side.
 

cucvrus

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That must be one heck of a block heater if it cost you that much to keep it plugged in for 1 night. Or you have some high electric rates. Whats the deal? What kind of block heater do you have?
 

doghead

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Don't forget the 30% exchange rate!
 

tim292stro

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I had just installed a brand new gear reduction starter 9 months ago...
New starter, new batteries, are your alternators outputting the right voltage to charge fully and are you getting your batteries up to >80% before shutting down? Short errands will keep batteries undercharged... I've also seen batteries fail inside of the first year of ownership.

...I do have a block heater, but it runs me about $85-$90 a night to run it, so I don't use it...
That must be one heck of a block heater if it cost you that much to keep it plugged in for 1 night. Or you have some high electric rates. What's the deal? What kind of block heater do you have?
Might want to check your electric meter for accuracy. My local utility put in new "smart meters" without calibrating them right as we were leaving for vacation during a move. With literally nothing plugged-in and no-one home for three weeks, we came back to a $560 bill... it happens.

A 1500Watt block heater in Maine's Emera Bangor Hydro District (where 1kWh is just a bit under 11-cents for residential, 2 cents cheaper for commercial), should only run you $4 to run for 24 hours straight ($125/month straight) And you shouldn't need to run a block heater of that power level constantly unless you are expecting to go out on the road at any time of day (on-call, like a Fire Department...). If you have a regular work schedule and use the CUCV for that, you can put a timer, thermostat, to control a contactor on the circuit you plug your block heater into (some nice GFCI outlets with indicator lights in them to tie it off). Set the timer for about an hour and a half before you leave for the day, and set the thermostat for 40°F (4.5°C). It'll cost you about $200-250 once, and you save every day... Need to leave at a random/unprogrammed time? Add a 2-hour mechanical wall timer in parallel to the programmed timer as a manual override.
 

eme411

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I think you need to loose that pump heater and install a normal block heater, and last time I checked Maine is still part of the lower 48, that cost per night makes no sense, is there a story there?
 

cucvrus

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At that cost I would let my CUCV idle all night. It would be less expensive. I idle mine 8-10 hours a day as it is in this winter cold. Been doing it forever with no adverse conditions. It is completely serviced every 3K miles. Less than $85. per night. It would idle 8 hours on 5 - 6 gallons of fuel.
 

porkysplace

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Depending on how long he ran it a gallon low on oil and what caused it to be a gallon low on oil, may have something to do with why it doesn't want to turn over.
 

74M35A2

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Your exactly right low voltage makes high amperage and things burn up and over heat. This is why the CUCV OEM starter relays fail. If you get a hint of low batteries charge them or replace them. Most times I just replace them. As many times as I start and stop a vehicle I have no issues with mine. If I need slave cables twice in a row. Load test the batteries and 9 out of 10 new batteries are needed. IMHO that is the problem. About 3-5 years and the batteries are toast. I use them hard plowing and jumping trucks and equipment.
Low voltage does not make high amperage. Low voltage makes low amperage (Voltage = Current x Resistance). What burns a starter at low voltage is the reduced cranking speed of said starter, via the amount of time a brush is in contact with each commutator piece on the armature while passing current. Proper brush motor is designed that each commutator segment simply wipes across the powered brush for a very small time, and the rest of it's rotation around is allowed to cool off before having its turn again on reheat. If we slow the starter down, while keeping it under the same load, we are greatly increasing the time spent on heating each armature commutator piece. Since they are simply copper, it does not take much heat to melt these segments completely. The faster a starter can spin, the longer the armature and brush life will be. On the solenoids, there is usually 2 coils within the solenoid, a "PULL" coil, and a "HOLD" coil. The pull coil is very powerful, enough to overcome cold, ice, water, dirt, and the internal return spring, all at the same time. It has to be strong enough to throw the starter pinion gear into the flywheel with authority level force nearly regardless of what is in its way. But this forceful coil generates too much heat to stay engaged, so, once engaged, it switches to a hold coil, which has enough power to hold the solenoid in the engaged position, but this coil alone does not have enough power to actually engage the solenoid. If the power to the starter is low, the solenoid may not fully engage, and remain on the pull coil circuit, which will quickly burn it up (this is where the starter will not shut off when key is released, because solenoid coil is so hot it is deformed internally, holding the solenoid plunger extended, and keeping the motor switch within it closed, continuing to crank the starter.). You don't have to actually pull and load test batteries, the vehicle itself is a great load test machine. Simply measure voltage during cranking. If below 10V on a 12V system, batteries are weak. Double for 24V. We all know the effect of low engine oil...
 
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