m1009 occasional scary steering

[Mainsail]

If you're accelerating out of a turn and you let go of the wheel, does the steering wheel center itself up, or do you have to return it to center?

I had that problem with a Ford Courier once. One day I got miffed about it and jerked the steering wheel hard back to center and heard a POP. After that the steering was much easier (not power steering) and it didn't seem to track straight. It turned out the ball in the idler arm was corroded and binding; keeping the steering wheel from returning to center on its own. When I jerked the wheel over it broke.

 

[cucvrus]

Of course if the front axle was not engaged and the hubs not locked in then there is no way the front axle U-joints could have caused this problem.

Mr Rusty Stud. I want to call you out on this one if I may. In my experience it will not matter if the hubs are locked or not. The outer axle u joints will bind and lock regardless if they are seized and binding. They outer axle U joints will also chew out and ruin the lock out hub bodies by applying that pressure unevenly to the hub bodies. The outer axle U joints can also break the frame at the steering box. I even had the failure of the outer axle U joints effect the cab rear cross member by grexing and binding that hard. That was a long time ago on a 1984 M1028 that has the 2 cab mounts at the rear without the complete cross member. The small angle that connects the 2 sheared one of the 5/16" bolts. So Am I all full of wind saying that the outer dried up seized U joints would cause the steering problem with the hubs locked or unlocked? And in 2HI or 4 HI. Either way they must turn and they can not turn (Steer) when locked up. Friendly debate only. Please. No wise guy chatter. Stay home and zip it if you can not act civil and have friendly debate on this subject. No double U joint bypasses or quad steering mods just pure stock talk please?

 

[Hasdrubal]

I'm with CUCVRUS, the axle u-joint binding absolutely happens in 2WD w/hubs unlocked. Happened to me. I believe you can try to turn the u-joint by hand and actually feel it binding.

 

[rustystud]

Of course if the front axle was not engaged and the hubs not locked in then there is no way the front axle U-joints could have caused this problem.

Mr Rusty Stud. I want to call you out on this one if I may. In my experience it will not matter if the hubs are locked or not. The outer axle u joints will bind and lock regardless if they are seized and binding. They outer axle U joints will also chew out and ruin the lock out hub bodies by applying that pressure unevenly to the hub bodies. The outer axle U joints can also break the frame at the steering box. I even had the failure of the outer axle U joints effect the cab rear cross member by grexing and binding that hard. That was a long time ago on a 1984 M1028 that has the 2 cab mounts at the rear without the complete cross member. The small angle that connects the 2 sheared one of the 5/16" bolts. So Am I all full of wind saying that the outer dried up seized U joints would cause the steering problem with the hubs locked or unlocked? And in 2HI or 4 HI. Either way they must turn and they can not turn (Steer) when locked up. Friendly debate only. Please. No wise guy chatter. Stay home and zip it if you can not act civil and have friendly debate on this subject. No double U joint bypasses or quad steering mods just pure stock talk please?

Act civil ? Really that hurts. Your right about the U-joints. My mind was thinking about brakes binding and such. Of course the axles are not spinning but they must still turn when the wheels are moved. This problem can be caused by the U-joints like you mentioned but the most likely culprit is the steering gear. Rarely have I seen axle U-joints totally seize up. They must have been severely abused for that to have happened. Usually they become so loose they fall apart. That I have seen plenty of times ! The only U-joint that I saw that totally froze up was a Double-Cardan . It broke the extension housing off a TH400 in a Cadillac. Then there was that 2 ton Chevy flat bed that broke the driveline at the differential due to freezing up.
Was that "civil" enough for you ? Let me know if I need to "zip" it.

 

[cucvrus]

Very Civil. I have seen many of these CUCV front axle U joints seized. I put them in a vise the long end of the axle locked in the jaws and the short end will not bend down with 230lbs hanging on it. I have seen this more then once. I have broken a few caps pressing them out they are seized that tight. They seem to be old and set a long time and just seized fast from lack of use and being driven in 2wd for years and never given any exercise. I use the grease able and the non grease able. never seen any difference in any. Had to change a few more then once over the years. Seldom have them fail a 3rd time. Good Luck. Thank you for the friendly debate.

 

[rustystud]

Very Civil. I have seen many of these CUCV front axle U joints seized. I put them in a vise the long end of the axle locked in the jaws and the short end will not bend down with 230lbs hanging on it. I have seen this more then once. I have broken a few caps pressing them out they are seized that tight. They seem to be old and set a long time and just seized fast from lack of use and being driven in 2wd for years and never given any exercise. I use the grease able and the non grease able. never seen any difference in any. Had to change a few more then once over the years. Seldom have them fail a 3rd time. Good Luck. Thank you for the friendly debate.

I have to reconsider my last response. I was right the first time. This particular problem is not a U-joint. It might create a little more drag on the steering (unless it was totally seized) and cause you to fight the wheel but it will "NOT" cause the steering problems "He" has been experiencing. Your last statement just confirms what I just said. If it was causing such problems then he would have noticed it years ago.
Now just a side note, why did you make such a stink about having a civil conversation and if not to stay at home and "zip" it ? Why so hostile ?
I edited my last statement to bring about clarification to my comments so as not to confuse anyone.

 

[86m1028]

I'll disagree
When steering whether in 2wd or 4wd that ujoint has to move (pivot).
It doesn't matter if it's rotating or not.

 

[cucvrus]

Now just a side note, why did you make such a stink about having a civil conversation and if not to stay at home and "zip" it ? Why so hostile ?

You see how it is? It will become a he said she said no its not and yes it is. It makes complete sense that the u joint would lock and cause steering issues. I just wanted to keep it to the point and not have hostilities like I have seen in other threads that prove nothing and are pointless. It was with a light hearted humor that I said if you do not have a civil reply and with good logic to zip it. Nothing more. If I said STFU that would have been hostile. I think we are all grown ups. But my point is I seen this on many 4 WD's over the years. It will steer hard and wonder on the road and then when you go into a 90 degree turn it will be hard to re center and then over correct it self a few times and may still wonder to one side because the single locked u joint is fighting to stay locked. It even bows the steering linkage on some occasions. Very hard on steering linkage and frame mounts.

 

[Hasdrubal]

I was right the first time. The seized U-joint will not effect steering as long as it is not in 4X4 mode.

Wrong! Whilst I agree your theory sounds correct. I had this very experience myself, in 2WD w/hubs unlocked driving to work. Scary experience, having the steering do that coming out of a corner. Called a CUCV knowledgeable friend, explained the symptom and he said axle u-joints are seized. Took it to a mechanic friend w 20 years experience, he disagreed that it could be the axle u-joints, up on the bench we tried to turn the u-joints by hand, you could feel them binding. Changed them out for zerk-equipped ones.

 

[rustystud]

Wrong! Whilst I agree your theory sounds correct. I had this very experience myself, in 2WD w/hubs unlocked driving to work. Scary experience, having the steering do that coming out of a corner. Called a CUCV knowledgeable friend, explained the symptom and he said axle u-joints are seized. Took it to a mechanic friend w 20 years experience, he disagreed that it could be the axle u-joints, up on the bench we tried to turn the u-joints by hand, you could feel them binding. Changed them out for zerk-equipped ones.

OK to clarify my position I'll try one more time to explain. If the U-joint "seized" (became immoveable) you could not steer at all. It would move a little bit then lock-up. So that means the U-joint was never totally seized just gummed up causing hard steering. The problem the OP has with his truck is the classic "Death Wobble". That is almost always caused by the steering gear or "extremely" loose joints. Do the axle U-joints ever get rusted up and cause problems ? Yes of course they do, but if they are "Totally" seized then like I said you could "NOT" steer the truck. Now I'm fully aware of how the axles can effect steering in any 4X4 vehicle. Just forget to unlock the hubs and go drive on a raining day. You'll quickly realize something is wrong, but I have never seen it where the axle caused the steering to whip to one side then whip to the other then be OK after that. Either it is bad all the time or it isn't bad.
So before everyone becomes a pack of wild Hyenas about this, lets wait and see what the OP finds out. If in fact it is the axle U-joints that are the problem I'll give everyone a heart felt "Kudos" .

 

[rustystud]

Now just a side note, why did you make such a stink about having a civil conversation and if not to stay at home and "zip" it ? Why so hostile ?

You see how it is? It will become a he said she said no its not and yes it is. It makes complete sense that the u joint would lock and cause steering issues. I just wanted to keep it to the point and not have hostilities like I have seen in other threads that prove nothing and are pointless. It was with a light hearted humor that I said if you do not have a civil reply and with good logic to zip it. Nothing more. If I said STFU that would have been hostile. I think we are all grown ups. But my point is I seen this on many 4 WD's over the years. It will steer hard and wonder on the road and then when you go into a 90 degree turn it will be hard to re center and then over correct it self a few times and may still wonder to one side because the single locked u joint is fighting to stay locked. It even bows the steering linkage on some occasions. Very hard on steering linkage and frame mounts.

If it is "light" hearted humor then you need to use the "emogees" . Otherwise everyone thinks your serious.

 

[rustystud]

I'll disagree
When steering whether in 2wd or 4wd that ujoint has to move (pivot).
It doesn't matter if it's rotating or not.

That's exactly right ! That's my point. If it was totally seized this would be an ongoing problem, "Not" an intermittent one. An axle that has a U-joint that is going out due to rust and corrosion will cause a constant steering problem also. Example: everytime you turn right you have to fight the steering.

 

[cucvrus]

So before everyone becomes a pack of wild Hyenas

I have pulled a few axles and had a pack of wild Hyenas hang from the short end and the long end while at each attempt the other end was clamped in the vise. The U joint was seized. It has to break loose every time the steering was worked from side to side. And under the load and pressure of the power steering it was able to break it loose but when it was attempting to return to neutral position again it would bind and cause the over steer when it did break loose. Now I imagine if it were in a different position it could be harder or easier at times. Lets say the frozen trunions of the U joint at 3 & 9 vs 2 & 7. get my point. A bit vague but I think you know my jest of it. I will let this go and see what the OP find's out. But either way U joints can cause many steering issues and I feel death wobble if one wheel is fighting to return to the proper neutral position.

 

[royalflush55]

All of the square body 4x4's that I have driven or worked on came from GM with the hardened non greaseable joints installed on the front axle shafts. I am confident GM felt this was the way to go. I have an 80 model K20 that I drove over 300,000 miles and had a lot of hard pulls and still has the original axle joints in it. A hardened joint not only isn't drilled for grease zert to weaken the integrity of the cross piece but it and the needle bearings are made of better material. If the seal is not damaged it will last a very long time.

One of my old John Deere 4 wheel drive tractors originally had greaseable joints in all the hinge area drive shafts. The u-joints were replaced after about 3500 hours greasing them at every fill up on diesel. These were same design JD parts. After about 2500 more hours these joints got loose. They were replaced with a newer JD design sealed u-joint assembly that you never grease. I was skeptical these would last in the fine dust and hard pulling. This tractor now has over 10,000 hours on it and these u-joints are still going strong. This tractor is a 1978 year model and these sealed u-joints have been in it about 20 years now!

The sealed u-joints cost more but my experience with them is if you are going to use it a long time they are the way to go.

This is just my 2 cents. YMMV

 

[rustystud]

So before everyone becomes a pack of wild Hyenas

I have pulled a few axles and had a pack of wild Hyenas hang from the short end and the long end while at each attempt the other end was clamped in the vise. The U joint was seized. It has to break loose every time the steering was worked from side to side. And under the load and pressure of the power steering it was able to break it loose but when it was attempting to return to neutral position again it would bind and cause the over steer when it did break loose. Now I imagine if it were in a different position it could be harder or easier at times. Lets say the frozen trunions of the U joint at 3 & 9 vs 2 & 7. get my point. A bit vague but I think you know my jest of it. I will let this go and see what the OP find's out. But either way U joints can cause many steering issues and I feel death wobble if one wheel is fighting to return to the proper neutral position.

I totally agree with you about the axle U-joints causing steering problems. What I've been trying to say for days now is "This" problem the OP has is different. I agree with you that the U-joints can seize then get busted loose then re-seize. That is my point ! They are constantly causing problems. They never get better only worse. So this "intermittent" problem is different then U-joints. Hopefully the OP can find the problem as no one wants to have a multi-ton vehicle with steering troubles !

 

[bryfor]

As an update on my thread...got it torn down replacing ball joints on drivers side. What a pita! Lower ball joint kept spinning with the nut but a little heat a coupla pry bars my neibors extra arms and 3 hrs later shes free! Then comes the steering knuckle arm removal with the three nuts and three conical washers...almost 2 hrs. I had to heat it up and beat on the side of arm till they stubbornly popped up. Its still on the stands awaiting ball joint removal and a healing elbow from a wrench slip and more parts. And cucvrus you were right about those axle shaft joints being seized and prob the cause of my occasional random wandering... it was unmovable on two pivot points...havent got to pass side yet...its on the list. Thx to all and for the great advice. I would post pics but am not sure how to...I have an old galaxy s3 and no home computer and cant figure out how to post pics. Id take some advice on that besides get yourself a new phone! Lol

 

[cucvrus]

While you are in there just go ahead and change out everything. I mean brake calipers , master cylinder and rear brake wheel cylinders. You are right about the ball joints. I have a Snap-On ball joint press that I use on removing and installing the ball joints. it is also very helpful to remove U joints. Gone are the days of beating them in and out. I just clamp the C clamp in the vise and use the cord less impact to press the old ball joints and U joints out and press the new ones in. It is easier on you and your nerves. I have had the pinched fingers and knocked up elbows. Not to mention the U joint caps dropping on the floor and misaligned needle bearings. The horror. Been a long time since I been down that road and don't miss it. The ball joints can be tight as all get up and the press makes child's play of it. As long as you press the correct way. Good Luck. Do everything right up front and be done with it for years to come. Greasable U joints or NON greasable same thing. It makes no difference. I have what ever I get my hands on at the time. They are equals in my world. Tierod ends and drag links while you are in there and all the dust seals and grease seals in the front spindles. Inexpensive repair when you have it apart. Later. Not so much fun the 2nd and third time around.

 

[zdubz]

Mine has the same steering problems and then some. After any turn on any road, the steering wheel will stay 90 degrees off in the direction that I had last turned until I have driven quite a few blocks. There's also quite a bit of steering wheel play. On the topic of steering, anyone know the location of the steering fluid reservoir?

 

[86m1028]

Mine has the same steering problems and then some. After any turn on any road, the steering wheel will stay 90 degrees off in the direction that I had last turned until I have driven quite a few blocks. There's also quite a bit of steering wheel play. On the topic of steering, anyone know the location of the steering fluid reservoir?

Youve got other issues besides just bad axle ujoints.
Reservoir is on frt driver side motor down by frame rail.
Round cap on top, below driver side alt.

 

[TGP (IL)]

Broken left front spring center bolt, loose U-bolts.

86m1028 is right on with fluid reservoir.

Tom