Metal in transmission

[JasonS]

About a year ago, I drained the oil in my deuce transmission (very dark) and put 40wt in and magnets on the fill and drain plugs. Yesterday, while preparing for a 150 mile trip, I discovered that the fill plug magnet had quite a bit of metal glitter. I drained the oil and found the same amount of metal on the drain plug magnet (pic with finger showing metal). I also found what looked like a broken dog in the drain pan. I couldn't find any other metal feeling around through the drain hole. Aside from being a bit noisy at road speed, it shifts fine and seems to work fine. Based on the seal wearing a significant groove into the output yoke and the subsequent wear through the speedy sleeve a previous owner installed, it appears that this transmission has a few miles on it. So, I assumed (hoped) that this could simply be metal from previous wear loosened due to the engine oil and captured on the magnet. So, refilled with 40 wt and went on my way. I pulled the plug after my trip and noticed more metal (pic holding plug with fingers). Transmission is warm but not hot after a long trip. I am not in a position to pull the cover right now and inspect the gears.

Thoughts or suggestions?

 

[gimpyrobb]

The first pic had lots of metal, second pic, much less. Seems like your just catching the remnants. I'd run it.

 

[Wildchild467]

I'm with Gimp on this one. The magnet is doing its job. just keep the transmission full of the proper gear lube (I use synthetic Mobil 50 weight gear oil) and keep driving it.

 

[Benj]

I don't own a deuce and have never worked on one. That being said, I have worked on many, many engines and transmissions in my time and one thing that is for sure, if you are making metal shavings, it's not going to get better on its own. Eventually, even with a mag plug, it will destroy itself. I had a similar problem on a car a few years ago and thought I would look at everything logically. In order to have that particular transaxle rebuilt, it would have cost me a minimum of $5k. A good working used transaxle can be had for ~$2k. There is no way I'm spending $5k and the only reason to stop driving and have it serviced immediately would be to attempt to minimize the damage and cost of a rebuild. So either I pull it out now and spend $2k on a replacement, or continue driving on it and spend $2k when it eventually goes. Why not get as much time as I can out of it? It's not saving me any money either way. So, in your case, if you want to have it rebuilt, stop now. If you would just replace it with a used box from someone's deuce that they did a power train upgrade, then do it when it actually dies, which could be years (or days). The only drawback to this is you run the risk of being stranded with a dead trans. Towing a deuce probably isn't cheap.

My 2 cents.

Benjamin

 

[tobyS]

Synthetic 50 weight? Sounds expensive. I thought manual tranny's used 80- 90 weight gear oil.

 

[rustystud]

Synthetic 50 weight? Sounds expensive. I thought manual tranny's used 80- 90 weight gear oil.

They did. We had a discussion last year (?) about the proper gear oil. I ended up calling "Tremec" who bought out Spicer and talked with an engineer about it. According to him the "modern" oils are OK for the manual transmissions. He did recommend a 50W or higher though.

 

[rustystud]

I don't own a deuce and have never worked on one. That being said, I have worked on many, many engines and transmissions in my time and one thing that is for sure, if you are making metal shavings, it's not going to get better on its own. Eventually, even with a mag plug, it will destroy itself.

Actually that isn't quite true. Since the deuce like many large trucks uses a "non synchro" first/reverse gear there is often a "little" grind when shifting. This of course leaves a little metal residue in the case. Does that mean the transmission is shot ? Of course not. Those gears are very wide allowing for this "extra" wear during use. So to find a little metal residue on the mag drain plug does not concern me at all. I have rebuilt literally "hundreds" of heavy duty transmissions (and quite a few car transmissions) and this has held true every time.



As can be seen in these pictures, the countershaft has wear due to hard shifting into gear. This shaft could actually be used again after cleaning up the gears with some high speed "scotch Pads" . I choose instead to replace it and just finished pressing off the two upper gears. The third picture shows the reverse gear itself and the wear it has. I will be replacing this gear too, though it too could be used again after cleaning it up. When I was rebuilding transmissions on a daily basis I would have to rebuild extremely rare transmissions like WWII tank transmissions. Up here in the Pacific Northwest a lot of logging companies used the chassis of Sherman tanks for there log pullers. When their transmissions broke the company I worked for would rebuild them. Since parts where almost impossible to find (at least within the time frame needed) I would have to make them work. We guaranteed our work too ! I never got a come-back on one of them. Though we did have some trouble with a 5 speed Clark out of a concrete truck. Turned out the operators would put the transmission in 4th or even 5th gear when running the PTO causing extreme wear on the countershaft. This was a Muncie PTO with a "slider" engagement gear. So the PTO was only engaged when in use.
OK, I just reread this and I'm getting carried away again, sorry !

 

[tommys2patrick]

Personally, I like hearing you talk about working on this stuff. For anyone who does not know, or rarely opens a gear box, this is hard won knowledge and I thank you for sharing it. I imagine these are stories similar to what my dad would have shared if he had the chance when I was a kid.

 

[Benj]

I should clarify my ignorance a bit more. Many, many (gasoline) engines (as a shade-tree mechanic, not a pro), and a few (synchro) transmissions. I certainly defer to your knowledge on this topic. The point that I poorly tried to make was that since I'm guessing NOS transmissions are rare if not non-existent, and as you know the parts are perhaps not readily available, that rebuilding is probably going to be cost prohibitive unless it's a DIY. Therefore, as grandpa used to say, "run it till you wreck it!"

Are there special tools required to tear down and rebuild one of these? I think that's what stops most people from working on their own in the civilian market.

 

[gringeltaube]

.........................................

Are there special tools required to tear down and rebuild one of these? I think that's what stops most people from working on their own in the civilian market.

Nothing really "special", besides a mid-size bearing puller and maybe a small 15-ton shop press, if you had to replace the large gears on the countershaft.

 

[DavidWymore]

One night after work, I dropped my 70's trans, removed and disassembled the main shaft and gears, reassembled with best parts from two transes, replaced all the bearings, and reinstalled in the truck as the sun was coming up. I had some recent experience with replacing transes and good instructions from

www.waterloospecialties.com

who is m-35tom on this forum and also sells bearings and other parts. First time rebuilding a trans, didn't seem hard, but I run a machine and welding shop and am a gearhead, so...

 

[DavidWymore]

...I sourced the bearings at work and there was one needle bearing that didn't fit, I think the front of the countershaft. Tom has the right ones.

 

[rustystud]

...I sourced the bearings at work and there was one needle bearing that didn't fit, I think the front of the countershaft. Tom has the right ones.

Tom has "all" the bearings and small parts at really good prices too !

 

[rustystud]

I should clarify my ignorance a bit more. Many, many (gasoline) engines (as a shade-tree mechanic, not a pro), and a few (synchro) transmissions. I certainly defer to your knowledge on this topic. The point that I poorly tried to make was that since I'm guessing NOS transmissions are rare if not non-existent, and as you know the parts are perhaps not readily available, that rebuilding is probably going to be cost prohibitive unless it's a DIY. Therefore, as grandpa used to say, "run it till you wreck it!"

Are there special tools required to tear down and rebuild one of these? I think that's what stops most people from working on their own in the civilian market.

These Spicer transmissions are about as simple as you can get. Unlike modern manual transmissions which require a whole box full of special tools to repair. All you need is a 9/16" socket or wrench, a 3/4" socket, a 1.5" socket, a hammer, snap-ring pliers, and side cutters to remove the cotter pins and (like Gringletaub said) a 15 ton press if you need to change the countershaft gears and a pry bar.

 

[cattlerepairman]

a 15 ton press if you need to change the countershaft gears and a pry bar.

Yes, this is one thing where M-35 Tom's instructions may be a tad too optimistic. They talk about an "arbor press". In reality, you cannot install the OD kit without a beefy hydraulic press. I have an 8 ton press and it is "just" big enough to make it work.

This has been the first time I ever tore into a transmission and I managed to do the upgrade; I did mangle one piano wire C-clip and chipped one gear tooth (but it was from the gear I was pressing off for replacement, so did not matter).

 

[Benj]

So it sounds like parts are somewhat available and DIY is not at all out of the question. I learn so much good stuff from these forums. I wish I were 18 again, I was the smartest man alive. It's been all down hill since then.

 

[rustystud]

Yes, this is one thing where M-35 Tom's instructions may be a tad too optimistic. They talk about an "arbor press". In reality, you cannot install the OD kit without a beefy hydraulic press. I have an 8 ton press and it is "just" big enough to make it work.

This has been the first time I ever tore into a transmission and I managed to do the upgrade; I did mangle one piano wire C-clip and chipped one gear tooth (but it was from the gear I was pressing off for replacement, so did not matter).

I've been salvaging transmissions parts I have here lately and the countershaft gears have all taken my 15 ton press to remove. Actually I had to put my 20 ton jack in to get one off, and it started to bend my press top plate before it finally came free ! That was from a 1954 REO truck and I'm sure it was still the original transmission and insides.
Which brings up another thing. I need some 2-3 synchro's. Does anyone know of a supplier who has a decent price on them ? Last one I found on eBay wanted over $250.00 each !

 

[gimpyrobb]

I'm sure you know it, but once your at the high end of pressure applied, sometimes a simple smack of a (brass) hammer gets things to let go. Something about the shock resonating through the part. Heat works good too.

 

[Welder1]

If you guys need a bigger press you need to come over to my shop. I have a 50 ton Enerpac unit. Gimp is right sometimes a shock blow with break the static friction.

 

[gimpyrobb]

I was a half a second from pulling the trigger on a good American made 60 tonner, but realized I haven't had anything my 20 ton couldn't handle(and it was WAY far away).