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FLU419 SEE HMMH HME Owners group

BigBison

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Yampa, CO
Like I said, I don't discount that something is a miss with your deal dude, but I will not allow the **** talking to continue without stating my opinion, and many others for that matter, that Jay is a stand up dude and does not deserve to be ran out of town because something happened with your deal. I'm sure you'll be more than happy to attempt to **** down my throat now, go ahead.
I welcome you to your opinion as much as you've welcomed me to mine. The only folks whose opinion I don't care to hear on this issue, are those without firsthand experience with the vendor in question. I'm only relating my experience, not trying to run anyone out of town. ;)

If it matters to you, many are sold with a bill of sale and are not titled. In theory the auction firms are supposed to issue titles on units sold at the government auctions but there are problems with follow through by the auction firms where the title paper work reportedly lag by months if its ever get issued.
After purchasing my first FLU bill-of-sale only and continuing to jump through all the hoops to obtain free/clear/proper title/registration/insurance... title status certainly did matter to me on my 2nd FLU purchase. My mistake, as I've noted, was taking delivery without title as promised (and still pending). There's a whole lotta space between bill-of-sale-only (clearly understood on my SEE) and title in exchange for my check... which was cashed nine months ago. Buyer beware.

An escrow account through my bank woulda cost what, $50? Split between parties? I'd still be out $35K but it'd be a whole lot easier for me to return the HMMH and get my $ back instead of dragging 2016 business into 2017, now, because 12/31 would've been the deadline on an escrow account. I still have no idea how this turns out, but it was a close thing not making the HMMH a backhaul today. Buyer or seller, if the other party won't agree to escrow, walk away on a FLU is my advice.

Stringing me along with any number of "any-day-now's" about the title for that period of time, isn't even what blew my fuse. Didn't even come up until this month. Now that it has, if the proper answer back in March to my insistent, persistent, sober questions pertaining to the title had been, "I can get it for you one of these days" then the agreed price would have been lower, due to "bill-of-sale only," or I would've walked away.

An interesting discussion, is how CO law on SMM (Special Mobile Machinery, SMM's on everyone's tractor/backhoe license plate) differs for FLUs. The whole reason I was willing to pay the asking price on the HMMH was to save time by not having to futz around for months on end over the title. Anyway, in CO, you can get your FLU titled as SMM, but it has to be registered as a Recreational Truck, with a "REC TRK" license plate.

Having a commercial truck license plate is required to get licensed, bonded, and insured to use your SEE to clear anyone's driveway but your own private property; you can drive a Rec Trk on the highway to harvest firewood for yourself, but as soon as you want to monetize your SEE to sell a log or move some dirt/snow, the first thing you'll need after you have title, is a commercial license plate so be ready to pay the gummint more tax.

I went into the HMMH sale with my eyes wide open regarding title status in this State. Bad review over this? Seller beware.
 
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BigBison

Member
317
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18
Location
Yampa, CO
I am working on getting the SEE manuals downloaded but have already found the German manuals. They show a schematic for the hydraulics and show two valves which are supposed to be pressure valves in order to slow down the fluid flow for safety reasons when lowering the loaded bucket.
No, thank you, buddy! Using the HMMH to load/unload pallets around a flatbed, loads lowered all nice & gentle. Those same loads, driven cross-country, all landed with an uncontrollable thud no matter how lightly I was feathering the handle. Maybe I shoulda stopped and idled a minute before lowering, I don't know, but it's interesting what you said...
 

BigBison

Member
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Location
Yampa, CO
...what seems like drunk ranting...
Yup, that's what blew my fuse, right there. Have a problem with this vendor? Get ready to be hollered & cussed at and the phone slammed down in your ear after being accused of drunken ranting for daring to have the effrontery to suggest that maybe my check shouldn't have been cashed until he'd come through on his end of the deal, instead of delivering me a truck I then had to ask even for a bill of sale to, after I realized that the only Couch-branded paperwork included was an invoice. Which I thought would've covered the hydronic heater and such, which I was never "double-billed" for. Yeah, I shouldn't have taken delivery, but without a bill-of-sale or even an invoice for the work done on what still isn't my truck, it shouldn't have been delivered by the seller, either.

The complaints on “charging the batteries” and what not... you will see on the invoice and in the following emails between Eric and Couch Off-Road that these were at no charge to him and the amounts were listed on the invoice and then discounted off. So he did not pay for anything extra or absurd charges... It appears he forgot to mention that he actually did not pay for that!! Noted in our emails we said “The other items listed that you are arguing about are just for your knowledge and at no charge to you. So yes we did some repairs and test drove before delivery at no charge to you. I'd be surprised to hear if most customers would be upset at that”.


I think plenty of customers would be upset at receiving an indecipherable invoice, purporting to offer a "discount" which happens to be equal to various charges... so what we come down to, is for five months and $580, the faulty ether-shot switch was replaced, the parking brake was fixed, and the lug nuts were torqued. Which I had hoped would be included in those rims/tires I certainly thought I was buying. Nothing about that invoice makes me happy, because all talk of snowblowers and universal skid-steer mounts aside, we'd only been talking about the hydronic heater, block heater, dipstick heater, etc. as per the HMMH for three months (of paying every bill I got, in a timely fashion as discussed), not to mention rims/tires, that trailer, before my SEE ever went to Couch to sit around and collect dust.
Eric sent us the SEE because he thought the head gasket needed to be replaced due to an over injecting ether system. After we reviewed the truck at Couch Off-Road, we informed him the head gasket was fine and did not need replacing, saving him $2,000 in parts and labor. It was his batteries were dead and at prolonged idle the trucks all put out gray smoke. There were some small repairs done to his vehicle like parking brake repair, and trying to bend the hood back into shape to fit the machine (unsuccessfully - which came to us bent and not fitting). Eric wanted the hydronic unit installed (like we had done on his HMMH), which yes..should have been installed by now and is my mistake for not having that done by now.
Saving me nothing. I wanted $200 worth of checks done to the motor while it was there for oh, so much more work that was never done, the hydraulic mods for a snowblower is a rabbit hole I apparently shouldn't have gone down if it prevented even the skidsteer adapter from being done, which was Jay's sales pitch for me sending him the SEE in the first place... plus I never asked for the hood to be hammered on, or the lug nuts torqued, what I did talk about were several miscellaneous parts still missing and rather obvious, like no work-light switch, plus hydronic unit, various other heating systems, tires & chains, oh don't forget those crane seals / reservoir my money isn't good enough to buy from Couch because I guess I'm a ranting drunk or whatever.

Plus, no idea what all that about prolonged idling / gray smoke etc. pertains to, maybe someone else's truck?
One reason I halted working on the SEE is Eric has been pushing to install a $14,000 snow blower on it that won't work because of the ridiculous volume and pressure needed to run the blower he insists on getting.
Not sure how you can halt work that was never started? First I heard you were actually gonna follow through on the skidsteer plate was this month, when you said if I "still wanted that done" you'd get to it in what, early February? As I've said all along, there's nothing ridiculous about that snowblower where I live, and if for some strange reason I can't spend enough money on my Unimog to run it, Plan B is buying a used skidsteer for $5K to run my ridiculous snowblower off a much smaller platform. Had Couch even started any of the basic winterizing work on the SEE as per the HMMH, I'd believe Jay when he says something can't be done, because as it stands I don't believe him when he says something can be done. I'm hardly a "failure is not an option" kinda guy, that's how we learn, so if it was back to the drawing board or abandoning the project, well, at least it woulda run most of those other implements I linked to earlier in this thread.
Realistically putting this system together could have cost between $25K and $37K to engineer and employ with a better than 60% chance of failure. If I am as bad of a guy as Eric says or a “mog thief” as so claimed, we could have done what he asked for and let him waste his money to have something that wont work.
Yeah, and since I posted my critique of your business on this thread, I've heard from more than one party interested in giving it a go, all being realistic about cost/chance of success. I said you weren't a thief, for the record, again. But the snowblower was always ancillary, because the first thing I wanted was all the other work done on the SEE so that it could remove snow around here this winter even with the stock loader bucket, you wait until mid-December, after months of discussing this, to tell me you're not interested? Now that I've complained, you blame the customer for not doing any of that other work? You realize your website says this is exactly the sort of project you're after? Excuuuuuuse me! :(
The SEE could have been picked up whenever he wanted after the repairs are paid, which was only $580. The proper address is on all the invoices he has received from us. He calls me up rant claiming we have an invalid business address, we are delinquent on our taxes, and that my business is for sale.... All of which are bizarre and untrue... this is when I asked if he was drunk and yes hung up on him.
Heh, no, after slamming the phone down, you called back to apologize. That's when I told you we're done, because at that point I was completely sketched out about googling your business and finding an incorrect address, delinquent tax status, and business for sale -- which until that point I wasn't going to bring up. Anyone googling your business can see this for themselves, even though most results don't reflect it. The ones that do, are your problem for being out there, not mine for finding, so don't shoot the messenger. By which I mean hollering and cussing and slamming the phone down in my ear a second time.
There are a hand full of inaccurate and embellished comments but this is a cool technical forum not a lame as soap opera. Apologies for the delays and miscommunication to Eric but slander is definitely a punishable offense according to our lawyers. For any further insite into this unfortunate happening keep reading the actual email communication below.
Dude, where's my title? Do you really want me to post my records of all those e-mails it's been promised to me? The above quote about being overnighted to you today wasn't 12/14 as you claim, it was two weeks before that, and that's only after my fuse blew, but for gosh sakes, it's been another month now, and now it's apparently gonna be next year before I see it? Don't bother trying to rebut me here until you come through on your end of that $35K you cashed last Spring. Then you can talk. I was patient over a week before replying to your post, which doesn't reflect messages actually from 12/14 or later about how I'd definitely have that title last week. OK, maybe next week, but until then maybe (all blaming the customer aside) the lack of a hydronic heater isn't the only mistake you've made.
 

BigBison

Member
317
1
18
Location
Yampa, CO
My FLUs both have (had) "6TMF" batteries. "MF" stands for maintenance-free. There's also "6TAGM" for that size of AGM battery, "6TL" is standard Lead-acid. The top-shelf option is a pair of Hawker AGM milspec batteries, for the FLUs. Nowadays, for a few dollars more, you can (allegedly) get LiFePO4:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery

Whole lotta pros, one or two cons but nothing I can't live with. I don't see where either of my FLUs has any 12V circuitry, it's all 24V. So why wire two 12V batteries together in serial?

http://ucbattery.com.tw/en/en-productmenu-24v60ahstart

One for each FLU. They'll mount right up in the battery boxes. One con is needing to re-wire some primary cables. But if your battery cables look like mine after a few decades, maybe it isn't such a bad thing to do this, seeing as how it also simplifies the battery wiring? Another con, is then you can't pull the batteries and swap 'em onto 12V chargers, but I have a 24V charger so no big thing...

Looking at my FLU battery boxes, it's obvious plenty of sulfuric acid sloshed out of whatever batteries have been in 'em before, like those 6TMFs that came with 'em. I'll go budget on batteries for other (stationary, i.e. solar) projects, but the 6TL and 6TMF options (or other alternative wet-cell setups) are not meant for any more than 15* tilt cruising down the highway -- why I'm comparing LiFePO4 to AGM, neither one will spill sulfuric acid all over the battery box if you treat your FLUs like the Unimogs they are.

Maybe I don't really want LiFePO4, but it's an interesting new battery technology that didn't exist when our FLUs were built and I've been kinda keeping an eye on for several years, so I think I'm willing to try. Needing new batteries for two 24V FLUs and seeing a new-tech battery in 24V so I can also simplify the wiring which needs to be re-done anyway, actually out there on the market available for purchase... After months of hemming and hawing over it, I think a 24V LiFePO4 "ship-starter" battery can probably crank the FLU, and maybe this is the way I want to go for my other vehicles next time around on batteries.

If I can actually buy them. There's something "vapor" about these batteries, particularly with all that "smart battery" tech on 'em. Seeing as how I need FLU batteries, I will give it my best shot ordering a pair of these tomorrow.

Anyone here gone with a single 24V battery (any chemistry) instead of a pair of 12V's? Am I overlooking anything on the FLUs that really is 12V so I shouldn't do this?
 

The FLU farm

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Whole lotta pros, one or two cons but nothing I can't live with. I don't see where either of my FLUs has any 12V circuitry, it's all 24V. So why wire two 12V batteries together in serial?
Each connection in an electrical system is a potential trouble spot, and eliminating two of the four connections in a 12 Volt series setup would be an advantage.
Other than that I can't think of a single reason to use a 24 Volt battery over two 12s.
 

BigBison

Member
317
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Location
Yampa, CO
I can't think of a single reason, no exceptions, for using two 12V batteries... 24V wins, 1-0 over dual 12Vs. Hardly a landslide!

Meanwhile, my SEE is out on the county road still, with the batteries disconnected and a pair of 12V chargers on 'em, won't take any charge current at 24V. Plan B is swapping in the batteries from my dead dually, to get the SEE started. I still have a problem with the ether-shot system, in that it engages with the starter -- I haven't touched the "fixed" switch, and of course the repair I authorized was disabling the ether shot in favor of several other cold-start modifications, for exactly this reason. Once the ether's coming through, it doesn't stop for a good, long while. Half an hour later, you still can't get within 20 feet of my SEE without getting high.

I've got some end-of-week-month-and-year business to attend to before I can study up on disabling that ether, so if someone has simple instructions on how to pull that canister, please post, because I won't even try to drive it into the paddock with a constant flow of ether to the motor -- good way to blow a head gasket, etc. or crash from being high on ether -- we aren't talking a slight whiff, we're talking full saturation of the cab and surrounding air, no wind today so really really noticeable problem with the ether shot. Still.

Not enough juice to turn the motor over, just engage the solenoid, solenoid engagement = ether flowing, yes the switch on the dash is in the pushed-in (disengaged) position.
 
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The FLU farm

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I can't think of a single reason, no exceptions, for using two 12V batteries...
...with the batteries disconnected and a pair of 12V chargers on 'em...

...before I can study up on disabling that ether, so if someone has simple instructions on how to pull that canister, please post...
I like dual 12s as they offer the ability to be charged off of most any vehicle, are readily available, can supply 12 Volts for accessories, and a few other reasons.

No reason to disconnect the batteries when charging them. But do leave the main switch off, just in case, so the two batteries can truly act like separate batteries.

There's a hose clamp holding the ether canister on my SEE, and after loosening the clamp the canister can be unscrewed.
 
46
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0
Location
Tulsa
Mine just has a hose clamp holding it onto the little fitting piece that takes it to a wire (very front passenger side of the external engine compartment), then on an oddly long journey into the air intake. I think I'd just loosen the can and let it bleed out it if will. If not, I think there was a little nut where the hose hooked into the air intake, you could probably take it off there. Maybe run it straight into the cab if you want to crack a smile while you drive her. :D

On the batteries, I'm glad to hear it's probably a purely 24v system. The trailer light plug in said 12 on it I thought, so I wasn't sure. I bought mine from great folk that run a great website, with great shipping speed, and at a great price. Though the 24v batteries do sound interesting.

http://www.powerstridebattery.com/military-ordinance-batteries/6tl-military-battery
 

BigBison

Member
317
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Location
Yampa, CO
Is it the canister that looks like an oil/fuel filter, right next to the washer-fluid bottle? I was gonna look at my wiring diagram and see what fuse to pull.

Thanks for the heads-up on the trailer-hitch lighting! I'll have to check that with a voltmeter, prolly 12V though, so no go on the ship-starter battery. :(
 

BigBison

Member
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Location
Yampa, CO
OK, ether can removed. Don't try this inside! When installed, the label on mine wound up facing the firewall, or it woulda been obvious yeah, that's the ether can, says so right on the label. It was pretty well corroded onto the mount, so it took a bit of time & effort to remove, spewing liquid ether the whole way.
 

BigBison

Member
317
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Location
Yampa, CO
The SEE's in my driveway, now, with a dozen more issues than it had last I saw it (hydraulic leaks & low fluid, also leaks air now, etc.), doing my best to shutup about all that as it isn't quite 2017 yet, but at least I have a tracking # for the HMMH title as of yesterday, Couch got my wire transfer today, so at least we're done and this won't drag into 2017. I'm back from my 90-minute round trip to NAPA for some white lithium grease, hydraulic fluid, etc. Next time I'm outside it's to re-install the newly-removed & about-to-be-greased latching mechanism for limbering/unlimbering the backhoe (pretty much exactly the same on the HMMH, which also needs this done, soon). Hammer and crowbar were required to unlimber the backhoe, earlier, because the latch mechanism had become stuck these past several months of neglect. Missing 3/4 tank of fuel, don't get me started and I'll not derail this thread but I'd hoped to get the SEE back in better condition than it left in, despite a $580 bill for what amounts to, literally, just fixing the parking brake (none of the other actually-billed repairs amount to actual repairs, including the hood fitting worse now despite the labor charge for hammering away at it, unless that was part of my "discount" or whatevs).

The left stabilizer must not be retracted anywhere near as far as the right stabilizer (although it is capable). Otherwise you can't slew the hoe left far enough to get it to latch when stowing it. I had to re-start the SEE, re-engage the PTO, and unlimber the backhoe just to get to the control levers without compromising my safety, and try limbering it again. The only sign of use on my hoe bucket, is still where someone bashed it into that left stabilizer -- probably while attempting to stow it. I came pretty close to not screwing up on my first attempt today, but if you don't have the hoe slewed all the way to the left, it'll hit your FOPS about 1/4" shy of being able to re-engage the latching mechanism, even after it's been removed/greased/replaced, if the bucket hangs up on the left stabilizer -- which also means if you put any wider a bucket on the hoe, you won't be able to fully limber/latch it for travel -- I don't see how a wider bucket wouldn't hit the FOPS before it could be latched down. I'm actually in the market for a narrower bucket, or of course an HME, for the utility trenching I need to do up at my property next summer.

If you don't exercise some patience, you'll wind up denting an otherwise-pristine hoe bucket & left-stabilizer pad, which has a corresponding dent on my SEE, but those dents have been there since before I purchased it. The fluid is down due to a newly-leaking ram on the backhoe boom, which wasn't like that before. Tomorrow's a new year so I won't bring this up again, or allow myself to get baited into any further replies concerning my vendor experience, but really one of the worst things you can do to a FLU is neglect it in some forgotten corner of some lot for several months, by trusting someone else with it who can't be bothered to care about it. Would I have "toasted" batteries or yet another leaky hydraulic ram or a frozen hoe latch or any other such issues if I'd done the work myself? Kept in my possession, at least, the motor would've been started regularly and the hydraulics exercised, which may have prevented these problems, or at least allowed them to be noticed and nipped in the bud with some PM before getting bad enough to need rebuilding/replacing.

My fault entirely. Next time, I'd rather fly in a specialist and put him/her up in a local motel for a few nights to work on my FLUs here at my place. I'm not likely to ship one off for repairs ever again, if I can possibly help it. I'm weeks away from catching my SEE up to the condition it was in a year ago, let alone moving that project forward, so it still doesn't keep me from paying someone else for snow removal this winter. I do need to shutup about it now, but suffice it to say, I've never been angrier at anyone for any reason in my life... the HMMH title situation is now resolved, but the condition of my SEE makes steam come out my ears, so I need to just put that behind me and knock all these maintenance issues off in-house. Maybe it'll be capable of doing snow removal next winter, but at this point my FLUs are more liabilities than assets, especially factoring in the $2,000 of pointless shipping charges on the SEE (so, $2,580 for parking-brake repair, actually). Don't let your FLU out of your sight unless you have to, is my unfortunate takeaway.
 
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Another Ahab

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Alexandria, VA
I'm sorry that you got stung, BigBison. But you're not alone, if that's any consolation.

Bitterness will just eat you up though (you need to read "Unbroken" by Karen Hillenbrand, I kid you not; great book).

The new year can be a fresh start; another chance to get it right. I'm hoping it all works out for you, so Happy New Year, Brother!
 

The FLU farm

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The left stabilizer must not be retracted anywhere near as far as the right stabilizer (although it is capable). Otherwise you can't slew the hoe left far enough to get it to latch when stowing it. I had to re-start the SEE, re-engage the PTO, and unlimber the backhoe just to get to the control levers without compromising my safety, and try limbering it again. The only sign of use on my hoe bucket, is still where someone bashed it into that left stabilizer -- probably while attempting to stow it. I came pretty close to not screwing up on my first attempt today, but if you don't have the hoe slewed all the way to the left, it'll hit your FOPS about 1/4" shy of being able to re-engage the latching mechanism, even after it's been removed/greased/replaced, if the bucket hangs up on the left stabilizer -- which also means if you put any wider a bucket on the hoe, you won't be able to fully limber/latch it for travel -- I don't see how a wider bucket wouldn't hit the FOPS before it could be latched down.

...the motor would've been started regularly and the hydraulics exercised, which may have prevented these problems, or at least allowed them to be noticed and nipped in the bud with some PM before getting bad enough to need rebuilding/replacing.
Sounds like you're trying to retract the right stabilizer all the way DSCN0058[1].jpgbefore having the hoe all folded up and turned all the way to the right.

Bucket width shouldn't have much to do with it. A six inch wider bucket would fit on my SEE, if removing the loop at the rear of the tool box.

I hate cold starting engines, and especially if they can't be brought up to full operating temperature before being shut off again. Also not having time for "exercise", as fun as it is to run these machines, I use engine oil, hydraulic fluid, whatever is handy, and a small brush to apply oil to the seals and exposed rods every six months or so.
Yes, the machine as a whole would prefer to be used regularly, but that isn't going to happen in my case. Besides, if they could sit in a govt. yard for years without any attention whatsoever, once serviced and taken care of a bit I figured that mine will survive even with infrequent use.
At least it seems to have worked well for about the year and a half that has passed since I got the first SEE.
 

BigBison

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Yampa, CO
Happy New Year to you too, Ahab! In these days of forum/blog comment sections being shut down left and right in favor of "just use Facebook" I can't begin to say how much I appreciate your presence here even if you aren't a FLU owner (at this time)! I so appreciate forum veterans!
 

BigBison

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Location
Yampa, CO
Sounds like you're trying to retract the right stabilizer all the way...
No, just part of the way. But you're exactly right, slew the hoe first, then retract the stabilizers. I think I figured that out for myself back in 2015, but being 2017 now for all intents and purposes, I'd forgotten. All's I'm sayin' is it's pretty easy to get this operation wrong in a variety of ways, resulting in various dented components. Even for experienced backhoe operators, who've never folded a Case 580 into the bed of a Unimog...
 

The FLU farm

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I'm actually in the market for a narrower bucket, or of course an HME, for the utility trenching I need to do up at my property next summer.
Planning ahead for trenching (and ditch cleaning) myself, I'm about to order a 12-inch bucket. The problem I foresee when using it for trenching is that the width at the upper pin is about 15 inches. Showing the bucket deeper than it is "tall" will not be kind to the upper pivot point, unless the dirt is fairly soft and rock free.
Not an issue with shallow ditches (except the inevitable mud stuck in the narrow bucket) but a deep trench will not be 12 inches wide towards the top.

Finding an HME might be easier said than done, although you could "make one". Most important would be to find a Vermeer MT884 trencher, which probably bolts right up in place of the backhoe. To get the correct dozer blade (which does use the standard front mounting points), locate a Schmidt P3MA. The rear suspension lockout looks easy enough to duplicate.
But the dozer blade certainly wouldn't be essential.
The big problem may be to find a hydrostatic drive unit. Or, there might be gearing for the trans/transfer case available that slows a SEE down enough to be useful for trenching.
 

Mark1954

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Planning ahead for trenching (and ditch cleaning) myself, I'm about to order a 12-inch bucket. The problem I foresee when using it for trenching is that the width at the upper pin is about 15 inches. Showing the bucket deeper than it is "tall" will not be kind to the upper pivot point, unless the dirt is fairly soft and rock free.
Not an issue with shallow ditches (except the inevitable mud stuck in the narrow bucket) but a deep trench will not be 12 inches wide towards the top.

Would Finding an HME might be easier said than done, although you could "make one". Most important would be to find a Vermeer MT884 trencher, which probably bolts right up in place of the backhoe. To get the correct dozer blade (which does use the standard front mounting points), locate a Schmidt P3MA. The rear suspension lockout looks easy enough to duplicate.
But the dozer blade certainly wouldn't be essential.
The big problem may be to find a hydrostatic drive unit. Or, there might be gearing for the trans/transfer case available that slows a SEE down enough to be useful for trenching.
You mentioned stowing the hoe in another post. I recently added a mechanical thumb to the backhoe on the see and seem to have trouble getting the boom to over travel to the lock position. I would assume the additional 300+ lbs would assist once it is moving, but it just won't quite swing over. I could use a come-a-long to pull it the last few inches, but that is a lot slower. Any suggestions?
 

BigBison

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Not sure if you had this problem before the thumb was added? The technique is to reverse the boom-control lever just before the boom stops short of engaging the pin.
 
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