FLU419 SEE HMMH HME Owners group

[BigBison]

hissing sound coming from the hi-low-rev shifter

You mean the hand splitter? It's supposed to hiss when used, if it doesn't you have bigger problems!

thanks... been all over youtube , no luck on tilting the cab, or the brackets. manuals don't make any sense...

Buried somewhere in this thread, or on some other forum, is some advice that it's actually easier to remove the cab than to tilt it. But I think that came from an HMMH owner who uses his crane to pull his cab?

 

[patrol578]

Maybe because Schmidt's an American company? I know a local CDOT plow driver, the v-plows retrofitted on the front of County motor graders for snow removal here are Schmidt, which they wouldn't be if they weren't at least American-made (due to County procurement rules), but it's my understanding they're based in Minnesota.

The Euro Unimog implement trading sites commonly have complete Schmidt FL4s available. Parts, not so much.

Schmidt is a daughter brand of Aebi Schmidt Holding Group, based in Zurich, Switzerland.

 

[BigBison]

Agreed, 25mph is actually my top speed in the SEE on the highway; the HMMH, otoh, convoys at 45mph no problem without all the side-to-side oscillation of the SEE at half that speed. I still just have the OEM tires on both.

Could also be the condition of my local state highway. Last year, there was a landslide in Glenwood Canyon which took I-70 down for months, diverting 17,000 vehicles a day onto a road designed for 1,700, all the bridges are busted up and the pavement's horrible now. My SEE can't handle this, my HMMH couldn't care less. It's my opinion that Federal funds should repair the State highway damaged by an Interstate closure, but good luck with that.

It is annoying, though, that with CO highway funding in the local news every day, nobody mentions fixing CO 131 despite how many people had to drive it when I-70 was closed. No, all the talk is about preventing future rockslides in Glenwood Canyon, not repairing/improving the alternate route. Meh.

 

[BigBison]

Schmidt is a daughter brand of Aebi Schmidt Holding Group, based in Zurich, Switzerland.

Oh! Thank you, I did not know that. Schmidt's so common on American highway plows, I had no idea it was a foreign brand. Plus, all the other implements on FLUs (crane, forklift, backhoe) seem to be American, so I guess I'm guilty of assuming Schmidt was, too. Now you've got me wondering even about Case!

 

[911joeblow]

Agreed, 25mph is actually my top speed in the SEE on the highway; the HMMH, otoh, convoys at 45mph no problem without all the side-to-side oscillation of the SEE at half that speed. I still just have the OEM tires on both.

What I don't know, is how much of this is to be expected on the SEE with its huge mass of loader bucket out in front of the steer wheels, or if it's more my SEE's front-end is more worn than my HMMH's, which is also to be expected from all that mass sitting all that way forward of the steer wheels even when the loader's not in use -- vs. the HMMH which only has that kind of mass out there when carrying a load.

I just air up my stock tires to 40PSI and I go 50 MPH on my county roads. If it starts to oscillate, stop counter steering on just hold the wheel. The driver is causing the hunt by counter steering too aggressively. It is just like pulling an unbalanced trailer, once they get going you are just adding to the issue by trying to fix it. Just hole the wheel and it will stop.

 

[BigBison]

Where I live, there's also crosswinds which really catch the SEE loader bucket and wreak havoc with steering control even if you aren't counter-steering; just not an issue driving the HMMH, regardless of tire pressure (I keep my FLU's stock tires at 45psi). Most of my FLU miles are the 10-mile round trip between my rented trailer and my owned property, only half of that's paved, so I'm speaking from limited experience, but I'm just sayin' if I have to task a FLU for grocery-getter duty, the HMMH wins hands-down!

If you have no problem driving a SEE 45mph on an unpaved road, it just makes me wonder about the condition of my SEE's front end / steering gear. I can't do that with mine, remember I put it in a ditch the other month at about 10mph...

 

[The FLU farm]

Or maybe you're the only one drives slow enough to avoid 'em?

Nice try, Bison. Even the cops around here know that I routinely drive triple digits - once outside town.
Not in a FLU, though. I'm still surprised that I ended up going 40 in the SEE.

 

[BigBison]

I have an interesting morning planned tomorrow, weather permitting. My buddy who helps me service/operate my FLUs has some erosion damage on a retaining berm up at his place in Oak Creek. Just needs a backhoe/loader, the problem is getting to the site. I've agreed to give it a try with the SEE, other backhoe/loaders (even 4x4's) wouldn't be able to access the berm in question. Most likely, he'll need to hire someone with a trackhoe, but if the SEE can do it...

Let's just say I'm willing to try, anything to cost-justify the SEE appeals to me for owning one. I'll try to remember to bring (and use) my camera, but we seem to have a perfect SEE application at hand, in that niche between backhoe/trackhoe, moving some boulders around and doing some excavating. I just told him he has to drive it on the highway, whereas if he wanted to borrow the HMMH he'd have to pry my cold, dead fingers off the steering wheel. I love driving the HMMH!

 

[BigBison]

If setting the high speed idle for backhoe use, the rpm should end up around 1,800. I can't operate a backhoe anywhere near well enough to justify that high rpm, instead running around 1,200. Sometimes less. About the only time I find myself having to raise the rpm a bit is when lowering or raising the backhoe.

Sorry to pick at a nit here, but, we are talking separate hydraulic systems front & rear... while 1200 RPM's enough to drive my SEE's front bucket into a pile of snow no problem, if it's wet heavy snow the bucket simply won't lift that load until I bump the RPMs. Given FLU idiosyncracies, I don't know if this is a design issue or just my Mog, but I suspect my backhoe could lift the same load at 1200 RPM given the beefier rear hydraulics. Regardless, before moving snow with the front bucket operating from inside the cab this past winter, I got in the habit of hitting the high-idle switch on the backhoe first so I never drop below 1800 doing snow removal, now. Easier on both me and my SEE, whee! This makes even more sense for the snowblower I want.

Although I think the backhoe could lift the same loads at 1200 (high idle on the HMMH is only 1100 btw), the experienced local advice I've gotten from those I've allowed to operate my FLUs is to run them at their design max and learn how to feather the controls. New equipment may have eight-way computer-proportional-controlled joysticks to increase productivity, but for precision work these guys prefer old-school hydraulic setups and just love how they can feather the controls on my FLUs because they're "top notch." My crane-operator neighbor prefers my setup for one-off jobs (vs. doing the same thing over and over all day, where he prefers newfangled controls) -- he tells me I bashed my GMCMH ladder with my mtn bike not because the RPMs were too high, but because as a noob I was pushing the levers all the way instead of feathering. Yeah... I can't argue with that... if things are happening too fast, slow down your hand, not your motor.

Then my excavation contractor said the same thing about how I was running the SEE -- lower RPMs lead to bad operational habits, i.e. pushing the levers all the way instead of feathering, and both these guys are saying how sweet my levers are when it comes to feathering and were only pushing the levers all the way part of the time, but were still happy with the performance under full hydraulic power at max RPM (1100 HMMH, 1800 SEE). They don't think I'll ever learn to feather my controls properly, if I compensate for my lack of experience by dialing the RPMs down and not needing to bother. I'm told to only drop RPMs when operating in a tight spot.

I think their point was that I should learn what I'm doing before operating in a tight spot, by learning full-throttle in other spots. Coming from me, this is second-hand advice, but it sounded sensible when I heard it, fwiw.

 

[The FLU farm]

I just air up my stock tires to 40PSI and I go 50 MPH on my county roads.

I learned a long time ago that under inflated tires create heat. So lazy person that I am, I find it easier to start with a too low tire pressure and let them build pressure by themselves.
Not that I've tried with a SEE, but it works great with my Jeep, which likes 10 psi on the road and 1-5 on the trails.
Then again, I haven't checked the tire pressures on any of the FLUs - if it looks like there's a sufficient amount of air in there, that's close enough for me.

 

[The FLU farm]

Sorry to pick at a nit here, but, we are talking separate hydraulic systems front & rear... while 1200 RPM's enough to drive my SEE's front bucket into a pile of snow no problem, if it's wet heavy snow the bucket simply won't lift that load until I bump the RPMs. Given FLU idiosyncracies, I don't know if this is a design issue or just my Mog, but I suspect my backhoe could lift the same load at 1200 RPM given the beefier rear hydraulics. Regardless, before moving snow with the front bucket operating from inside the cab this past winter, I got in the habit of hitting the high-idle switch on the backhoe first so I never drop below 1800 doing snow removal, now. Easier on both me and my SEE, whee! This makes even more sense for the snowblower I want.

Although I think the backhoe could lift the same loads at 1200 (high idle on the HMMH is only 1100 btw), the experienced local advice I've gotten from those I've allowed to operate my FLUs is to run them at their design max and learn how to feather the controls. New equipment may have eight-way computer-proportional-controlled joysticks to increase productivity, but for precision work these guys prefer old-school hydraulic setups and just love how they can feather the controls on my FLUs because they're "top notch." My crane-operator neighbor prefers my setup for one-off jobs (vs. doing the same thing over and over all day, where he prefers newfangled controls) -- he tells me I bashed my GMCMH ladder with my mtn bike not because the RPMs were too high, but because as a noob I was pushing the levers all the way instead of feathering. Yeah... I can't argue with that... if things are happening too fast, slow down your hand, not your motor.

Then my excavation contractor said the same thing about how I was running the SEE -- lower RPMs lead to bad operational habits, i.e. pushing the levers all the way instead of feathering, and both these guys are saying how sweet my levers are when it comes to feathering and were only pushing the levers all the way part of the time, but were still happy with the performance under full hydraulic power at max RPM (1100 HMMH, 1800 SEE). They don't think I'll ever learn to feather my controls properly, if I compensate for my lack of experience by dialing the RPMs down and not needing to bother. I'm told to only drop RPMs when operating in a tight spot.

I think their point was that I should learn what I'm doing before operating in a tight spot, by learning full-throttle in other spots. Coming from me, this is second-hand advice, but it sounded sensible when I heard it, fwiw.

I find it much easier to moderate the engine speed with the skinny pedal. Otherwise I'd have to shove the rpm down every time I come to a stop or shift gears, or the clutch would suffer needlessly. I refuse to slip clutches, and I shift between forward and reverse a lot when using the loader.

If I pushed the backhoe levers all the way at all times, I'd have to run the engine with the starter, not at 800 to 1,200 rpm. Of course I feather the controls. I have to in order to create the result I want. And I want to, for the simple reason that it's kinder to the machine.
Maybe there is a valid reason, or two, to run the engine at 1,800 rpm, but when the backhoe has the force I need and isn't slowing me down at 1,200 rpm, I rather have less noise, fuel consumption, and wear on the engine.
Yes, I started out running at 1,800 rpm, because "that's what you're supposed to run", but after less than half a mile of digging it became obvious that the work could be performed with less.
Maybe I'll end up needing 1,800 rpm for some chore some day, running into a large chunk of granite, for example. Until that day comes I'll keep the rpms low and the digging smooth. Even in car racing it's faster to be smooth.

 

[BigBison]

I find it much easier to moderate the engine speed with the skinny pedal. Otherwise I'd have to shove the rpm down every time I come to a stop or shift gears, or the clutch would suffer needlessly. I refuse to slip clutches, and I shift between forward and reverse a lot when using the loader.

Until I figured out how to bend the hand-throttle lever properly, taking my foot off that skinny pedal wasn't dropping the RPMs so I learned to deal with it and now I prefer it. In low range, there's not much slippage going on with the clutch. Maybe you can eke out a coupla more winters without replacing your clutch, but I don't go any slower reversing while doing snow removal.

Maybe there is a valid reason, or two, to run the engine at 1,800 rpm, but when the backhoe has the force I need and isn't slowing me down at 1,200 rpm, I rather have less noise, fuel consumption, and wear on the engine.

Valid points, but on yet another issue we're gonna hafta "agree to disagree." If it takes you longer to clear my driveway (or dig a hole, whatevs) than it takes me, will you really have consumed less fuel etc. than me, by the time you're done?

Maybe I'll end up needing 1,800 rpm for some chore some day, running into a large chunk of granite, for example. Until that day comes I'll keep the rpms low and the digging smooth. Even in car racing it's faster to be smooth.

Why'd you have to go and bring that up? Back when I was learning to drive race cars, I was taught to treat the shift lever like an egg, but not a hard-boiled egg. I apply this to my FLUs -- at least on mine, they shift perfectly smooth unless you're forcing the issue. My SEE's high idle is actually 1600, but I can't imagine turning it down further, especially for snow removal ops, which amounts to fairly intensive equipment use pretty much regardless of how one goes about it.

Being efficient at clearing snow with the SEE means operating the loader while underway, below 1600 this doesn't work. If it was just a matter of changing directions and working the clutch, that'd be one thing, but I'm too impatient to not be operating the bucket at the same time.

 

[peakbagger]

Back when I was learning to drive race cars, I was taught to treat the shift lever like an egg, but not a hard-boiled egg. I apply this to my FLUs -- at least on mine, they shift perfectly smooth unless you're forcing the issue. My SEE's high idle is actually 1600, but I can't imagine turning it down further, especially for snow removal ops, which amounts to fairly intensive equipment use pretty much regardless of how one goes about it.

That is exactly what the retired Case/Unimog mechanic told me a week ago. Be gentle with the shifter as the synchros are not very robust. I really don't want to ever have to pull a transmission. Its interesting to note the newer U1300l Mog that was produced for the German military at the same time as the SEE was specified that the gearbox is mounted remotely from the engine so that it can be removed without the engine having to be taken out. Apparently a clutch change out is fairly easy compared to the SEE. From my research, the US military bought a well proven by obsolete chassis. I haven't seen a U1300L equipped with a loader backhoe so maybe they didn't have a choice.

 

[patrol578]

Oh! Thank you, I did not know that. Schmidt's so common on American highway plows, I had no idea it was a foreign brand.

You have a point about the Buy American sourcing requirements, which are very common, but there are usually exceptions. It all depends on how the need is defined, and how well the procurement request is written.

 

[patrol578]

Even in car racing it's faster to be smooth.

Fast is slow. Slow is fast....

 

[Another Ahab]

I learned a long time ago that under inflated tires create heat. So lazy person that I am, I find it easier to start with a too low tire pressure and let them build pressure by themselves.
Not that I've tried with a SEE, but it works great with my Jeep, which likes 10 psi on the road and 1-5 on the trails.
Then again, I haven't checked the tire pressures on any of the FLUs - if it looks like there's a sufficient amount of air in there, that's close enough for me.

So you're one of those detail guys, is that right Mr. Flu Farm?!

 

[The FLU farm]

Until I figured out how to bend the hand-throttle lever properly, taking my foot off that skinny pedal wasn't dropping the RPMs so I learned to deal with it and now I prefer it. In low range, there's not much slippage going on with the clutch. Maybe you can eke out a coupla more winters without replacing your clutch, but I don't go any slower reversing while doing snow removal.



Valid points, but on yet another issue we're gonna hafta "agree to disagree." If it takes you longer to clear my driveway (or dig a hole, whatevs) than it takes me, will you really have consumed less fuel etc. than me, by the time you're done?



Being efficient at clearing snow with the SEE means operating the loader while underway, below 1600 this doesn't work. If it was just a matter of changing directions and working the clutch, that'd be one thing, but I'm too impatient to not be operating the bucket at the same time.

If starting from a dead stop, or shifting between forward and reverse, there will be a certain amount of clutch slippage. The higher the engine rpm, the more slippage must occur.
So far I have never had to replace a clutch in anything I've owned, which by now is probably approaching 200 vehicles. Some of that is dumb luck as the vast majority have been used (often very well used) vehicles, but surely the fact that I treat clutches kindly has helped.
Yes, I have replaced several clutches, because if I'm "in there" anyway, the wear parts will get replaced. The lone exception to this is my Jeep. It wears out the springs in the clutch disc, but that's a result of too much torque for the size of clutch. That one is a combination of being in there anyway and a near need.

I'm not concerned with how much fuel my SEE uses, per se. It's just that I don't like to have to stop and refuel any more often than I have to. Also, I like quiet. A SEE is far from quiet, but it's at least a bit quieter when operated at lower rpm, and when not banging the backhoe parts against their limits in an effort to work more quickly.
Before getting my own, I have admired professional operators skill and speed. I still do, but while it may take me twice as long to perform the same task, the result doesn't look the same.
Does it really matter if a ditch has a perfectly smooth bottom and uniform sides? No, and especially once filled with water and invisible. I don't know if it's pride in workmanship or simply a desire to learn to do a job as perfect as possible, but I prefer to do things right (or, beyond right) even if it takes more time.

I agree that operating the loader and moving at the same time is the only way to go, and I'm still working on running both levers simultaneously (while steering with the leg) to make the bucket movements as fluid as possible. Nearly have it nailed down with the tractor's single lever, but doubt that I'll ever master the SEE's loader. Especially since all the elegance goes out the window when having to change between forward and reverse.

 

[The FLU farm]

So you're one of those detail guys, is that right Mr. Flu Farm?!

I'm absolutely anal about many, many things, but tire pressures in a FLU is not one of them.
Even with 48 hour days at my disposal, there just wouldn't be enough time to be precise with everything. So things that don't really matter, I don't worry about.
So why then am I spending much time on brackets for my truck bed that won't even be visible with the bed installed? It's a bad habit of mine, making things look as good as possible while I'm at it.

 

[anthkey]

that was the prob..one fan pushed in and froze, locked down... they just popped a new fuse in and sent it on it's way.. ya... they inspected it alright... HA HA ...
going to replace whole assembly... 2 new fan motors... everywhere in the TM's... CAUTION... HIGH PRESSURE... cant find how to relieve the systems pressure..??

 

[peakbagger]

that was the prob..one fan pushed in and froze, locked down... they just popped a new fuse in and sent it on it's way.. ya... they inspected it alright... HA HA ...
going to replace whole assembly... 2 new fan motors... everywhere in the TM's... CAUTION... HIGH PRESSURE... cant find how to relieve the systems pressure..??

I expect its only high pressure when the PTO is engaged and it leaks down quite quickly

EI has the whole assembly or you can do what I did and looked up some 24 volts electric fans on Ebay and made an adaptor plate. If you are restoring it for show, then go OEM but for $500 from EI plus shipping I am happy with my SPAL 10 inch fans.

FYI to remove the cooler, there are captive nuts welded inside the case. Spray the threads liberally with whatever flavor of penetrant you prefer and then remove the bolts from underneath. I think 3 of the captive nuts held on mine and I had one that spun. I had to unbolt the case to get the new fans in without disconnecting piping.