Which of these three generators do you like the best comparison

[Philratcliffe]

I’m looking for 20-25 kw single phase 240 generator. There are two I like and want to buy one of them just would like a little feedback and your opinions

http://www.abrahamindustrial.com/buy/category.asp?id=1

The first two on the page are 25kw the John Deere 2.9L turbo three cyl powered unit is 04 with just over 1,000 hours. I look at the mechanical governor vs the second 25kw which is an 2014 with only 95hours and powered by a 4 cyl Kubota non wet sleeve engine. I like the wet sleeve as I don’t much trust the machine shops down here in Colombia. It has an electronic governor. Which will be less problematic or is the electronic so reliable it shouldn’t be a consideration?
Will a naturally aspirated engine usually go more hours than a turbo Diesel engine?
Also is a four cylinder engine with a smaller lighter piston going to live longer than a turbo engine with three larger heavier pistons.

Here is the kicker. The forth genset on the page is a 30 kw kohler with a three cyl 2.9 John Deere engine also it’s a different engine number but its rated at the same hp as the engine in the 25kw. I’m wondering if has the same fuel consumption as the 25kw until it exceeds 25kw loads??

Please take a look at the specs of the three and give your opinion as to the pros and cons of each unit. The tier rating makes no difference here in colombia I know some of you guys deal with generators on a daily basis!

I looked at aurora generators. That’s where I got pricing on new units. The hardy generator web page is down for some reason.
These units I’m looking at are about 5k less than a comparable new unit with sound enclosure

How often should the injectors be service and cleaned? Thanks in advance for any info...

 

[Coug]

The wet sleeve vs non wet sleeve being debated simply because of available machine shops around isn't really fair to the machine. I can't speak for the 3 cylinder JD engine, but I've seen more than a few small 3 and 4 cylinder Kubota diesel engines on reefer trucks with over 15k hours on them, and a few in excess of 30k hours.

Fuel consumption is going to be similar on all 3 of these for the most part. They will all do about the same amount of work for the same amount of load applied, and they aren't drastically different sizes or ratings to begin with. The kubota being non-turbo might be slightly less efficient than the other 2, but not likely to be enough to make any real difference.

All 3 of these units run at 1800 rpms, so longevity is a bit of a toss up. Heavier moving parts means more power wasted getting those parts moving, and more stress on the moving parts. Turbo gives one more part that can fail, but makes it more efficient overall. Will care more about oil quality and stuff like that, but modern turbos are lifetime items (as long as it's not a mid 2000s ford truck)

The nice thing about the electronics is when they fail and you install a new piece, they don't always need calibrated like a mechanical system. Downside is some of those circuit boards can be very expensive. Plus, if something goes wrong you might need brand specific cables and software just to talk to them and figure out what it is that failed. Recently went to look at a smaller diesel unit being used as prime power off grid, and just the cable to talk to the controller is $900.

In my experience with smaller diesels, unless you're doing screwing up the fuel system it's very unlikely that the injectors are going to need anything done to them during normal operation. As for what the manufacturer recommends, you'll need to ask them. I don't know what fuel quality is like down in Columbia, so how long they'll last is out of my experience here.

Personally I like Kubota diesel engines, but that's just because I've been around more of them, and to be honest, I don't think I've ever worked on one for internal issues. They pretty much just work. The John Deere engines are good as well.


So what is the primary purpose of this machine? Is it going to be used as a prime power plant or as an emergency backup?

Considering this is for use in another country, the mechanical governor is going to be a more simple control setup, so if something fails then you are more likely to be able to repair it without waiting for electronic components to be shipped in from another location.

I would venture to say the Cummins might be a better overall unit than the Kohler from my experience with smaller generators than these, mostly the air cooled home standby units, but in this case I'm leaning slightly towards the first unit simply for more mechanical and fewer electronic parts. Electronic parts are good these days, but nothing lasts forever.

 

[dougco1]

What size/type of a building are you trying to power with single phase?
20-25 kw will do a fairly large building and maybe your over sizing your needs.

 

[Philratcliffe]

The wet sleeve vs non wet sleeve being debated simply because of available machine shops around isn't really fair to the machine. I can't speak for the 3 cylinder JD engine, but I've seen more than a few small 3 and 4 cylinder Kubota diesel engines on reefer trucks with over 15k hours on them, and a few in excess of 30k hours.

Fuel consumption is going to be similar on all 3 of these for the most part. They will all do about the same amount of work for the same amount of load applied, and they aren't drastically different sizes or ratings to begin with. The kubota being non-turbo might be slightly less efficient than the other 2, but not likely to be enough to make any real difference.

All 3 of these units run at 1800 rpms, so longevity is a bit of a toss up. Heavier moving parts means more power wasted getting those parts moving, and more stress on the moving parts. Turbo gives one more part that can fail, but makes it more efficient overall. Will care more about oil quality and stuff like that, but modern turbos are lifetime items (as long as it's not a mid 2000s ford truck)

The nice thing about the electronics is when they fail and you install a new piece, they don't always need calibrated like a mechanical system. Downside is some of those circuit boards can be very expensive. Plus, if something goes wrong you might need brand specific cables and software just to talk to them and figure out what it is that failed. Recently went to look at a smaller diesel unit being used as prime power off grid, and just the cable to talk to the controller is $900.

In my experience with smaller diesels, unless you're doing screwing up the fuel system it's very unlikely that the injectors are going to need anything done to them during normal operation. As for what the manufacturer recommends, you'll need to ask them. I don't know what fuel quality is like down in Columbia, so how long they'll last is out of my experience here.

Personally I like Kubota diesel engines, but that's just because I've been around more of them, and to be honest, I don't think I've ever worked on one for internal issues. They pretty much just work. The John Deere engines are good as well.


So what is the primary purpose of this machine? Is it going to be used as a prime power plant or as an emergency backup?

Considering this is for use in another country, the mechanical governor is going to be a more simple control setup, so if something fails then you are more likely to be able to repair it without waiting for electronic components to be shipped in from another location.

I would venture to say the Cummins might be a better overall unit than the Kohler from my experience with smaller generators than these, mostly the air cooled home standby units, but in this case I'm leaning slightly towards the first unit simply for more mechanical and fewer electronic parts. Electronic parts are good these days, but nothing lasts forever.

The primary purpose of the generator is to run my island hotel 12 hours a day in the day time. I’m currently running a pair of 002s but am growing and adding more refrigeration, washing machines a huge ice maker for my bars so i want 20-25kw in the day time and I have three 005s one of which will run the hotel 12 hours at night and it will run my rowpu a few 12 days a month to make water
My 002s run 7 days straight i Change oil once a week.
I like the 500 hour oil change increments of the larger gensets

There are no roads or cars here so everything is moved by hand I like the wet sleeve diesel engine design as I can rebuild them here on the island.

When you say the turbo engines are more efficient, do you mean you get more energy out of a gallon of diesel fuel in a turbo application than a non turbo engine? Will the turbo use less fuel than a larger N/A engine?

I looked at Perkins powered 20kw and 25 kw. They use the smallest engine of the three @ 2.2L. The 20kw in N/A 2.2L the 25kw is 2.2L turbo
The Perkins 2.2 turbo make 60hp vs the 2.9L JD that makes 70-79hp. I’m not sure on support for Perkins here but will inquire. I think that the 2.2 most be running more boost to make the hp so I would assume that will hurt the engines longevity. What do you think?

So you think I should stay away from the electronic governor engines? Some of the machines have self diagnosis feature or would that not include the governor?

Thanks so much for the info

 

[Philratcliffe]

Of the three gensets on the page, only the first set the kohler has the mechanical standyne mechanical governor. So that unit is what you would buy? Thanks again for your input

Would you prefer that over a 10 year newer unit with the kohler na engine.

I want the most fuel efficient because the will run 24/7/365. Thanks again. If turbos consume less fuel that the way I want to go. Thanks again

 

[Philratcliffe]

What size/type of a building are you trying to power with single phase?
20-25 kw will do a fairly large building and maybe your over sizing your needs.

I have an island hotel in colombia near Cartagena. No roads no services. A bunch of ac units. Coffin freezers six medium sized fridges. Washer dryer. Monster 550 lb per day ice machine. Only my and my partners houses have ac 24/7. All the other ac rooms that air only works at night. So will load up my 005 for night time duty run the ice machine 12 hours a night wash clothes at night.

 

[simp5782]

There are freezers available that will run off a 2ft x 2ft solar panel and a 12v car battery. They work very well so that would take a load off of the generators

 

[Chainbreaker]

The 2014 25 kW Cummins/Kubota with 95 hours on the Hobbs would be my pick as I think for $10.5K your getting a lot! Cummins & Kubota have a very good reputation with a good parts distribution network worldwide. However, I am partial to the Japanese engineered Kubota's as I have a 4 cyl 2008 Kubota tractor and 2017 3 cyl Kubota lawn mower that never let me down. The Kubota engines have been 100% trouble free only requiring routine maintenance. The genhead being a Stamford is top of the line. 25 kW potential output should give you peace of mind that you are not going to over tax this genset for the purpose you outlined.

As far as the other brand choices...If having to choose between a 3 cyl diesel and 4 cyl diesel my feeling is that the 4 cyl is a smoother running more naturally balanced engine (at least that is what I have experienced with my Kubota's). As far as governor control "mechanical vs electronic" that is a hard one to answer. Mechanical parts fail and electronic parts fail. Depending on cost you could consider stocking a few critical spares since your operation is essentially mission critical. I have found that if you take your time you can usually find reasonable cost parts on electronics if you don't wait until your unit is down and it becomes urgent.

I'm sure the other units you listed have positives as well but I don't have any experience with those engines.

 

[Philratcliffe]

There are freezers available that will run off a 2ft x 2ft solar panel and a 12v car battery. They work very well so that would take a load off of the generators

I have 2 huge coffin freezers that are opened fairly often we feed about 100 guests three times a day and 75 employees including my construction workers. I’m 50 mts from the beach I had a medium 24v coffin solar freezer that didn’t last a year the charge controls puked every month or two. And we are growing like crazy. In 8 months I may have to run 1 of my 002s 24/7 besides the larger genset.

 

[Philratcliffe]

The 2014 25 kW Cummins/Kubota with 95 hours on the Hobbs would be my pick as I think for $10.5K your getting a lot! Cummins & Kubota have a very good reputation with a good parts distribution network worldwide. However, I am partial to the Japanese engineered Kubota's as I have a 4 cyl 2008 Kubota tractor and 2017 3 cyl Kubota lawn mower that never let me down. The Kubota engines have been 100% trouble free only requiring routine maintenance. The genhead being a Stamford is top of the line. 25 kW potential output should give you peace of mind that you are not going to over tax this genset for the purpose you outlined.

As far as the other brand choices...If having to choose between a 3 cyl diesel and 4 cyl diesel my feeling is that the 4 cyl is a smoother running more naturally balanced engine (at least that is what I have experienced with my Kubota's). As far as governor control "mechanical vs electronic" that is a hard one to answer. Mechanical parts fail and electronic parts fail. Depending on cost you could consider stocking a few critical spares since your operation is essentially mission critical. I have found that if you take your time you can usually find reasonable cost parts on electronics if you don't wait until your unit is down and it becomes urgent.

I'm sure the other units you listed have positives as well but I don't have any experience with those engines.

I will also have three 005s and three 002s. So if any of my gensets goes down I have a backup.

What do you think of fuel consumption and longevity of a turbo vs N/a diesel?

I agree four smaller pistons should put lest strain on the rotating assm and therefore live a longer life and less cylinder pressure will help in this refused as well but due to the 24/7/365 operation the best set up for fuel efficiency is really important. Thanks for your input!

 

[Coug]

Of the three gensets on the page, only the first set the kohler has the mechanical standyne mechanical governor. So that unit is what you would buy? Thanks again for your input

Would you prefer that over a 10 year newer unit with the kohler na engine.

I want the most fuel efficient because the will run 24/7/365. Thanks again. If turbos consume less fuel that the way I want to go. Thanks again

The turbo uses some of the waste heat and turns it into extra power by increasing the amount of air entering the engine. When you compare a turbo to a non turbo engine that are otherwise the same, the turbo engine will make more power, and work much better at higher altitudes.
Considering you are on an island, altitude probably isn't going to be an issue.

Looking at the specs on the engines, at full load the Kubota will burn almost 2.5 gallons per hour, where the John Deere is rated at about 14lbs/hr, translates to 2 gallons per hour full load. That's around 20% more fuel burned in the Kubota, which eliminates that one if fuel efficiency is a primary factor.


One other thing to note, the Kohler gensets here are shown with their standby power ratings. When rated for prime power, reduce the numbers by 10%. This allows for temporary loads such as cycling motors and such.


http://www.kubotaengine.com/assets/documents/Kubota_Spec_Sheet_V3300_Standby.pdf

https://airgeninc.com/johndeere/pdf/jd/generator-drive-engines/EPA-Tier1/3029TF150_D.pdf


As for mechanical vs electronic governor, the main reason they change is because of emissions output, mechanical isn't fast enough and when the engine runs outside it's rated specs, even slightly, the emissions change. Electronic governor is much faster and more precise, and will stay much closer to 60HZ as load is applied, where the mechanical one typically starts out a little above 61hz and is allowed to drop down below 59hz at full load. These days either way is kind of a toss up.


With the Kubota eliminated due to fuel consumption, given the choice between the first and 4th units I'd probably take the 4th for your application. Larger built in fuel tank, and it's been stationary it's entire life, as opposed to bouncing around on a trailer and operated in unknown conditions. Also a month of runtime difference. Larger fuel tank, I'm not sure how you fill up but a 60 gallon vs a 260 gallon tank means filling it more at a time, but a lot less often, every 5-7 days instead of every 1-2 depending on load. Might be some way to rig auxiliary fuel feed to it, but I haven't checked.
The gen head on the 1st one is reconfigurable, which you don't need. They are both good heads, but simpler is better. If you don't need 3 phase or other voltages it's just not needed, and if you ever need to get it rebuilt simple is better.

 

[maniatopoulosg]

I’m looking for 20-25 kw single phase 240 generator. There are two I like and want to buy one of them just would like a little feedback and your opinions

http://www.abrahamindustrial.com/buy/category.asp?id=1

The first two on the page are 25kw the John Deere 2.9L turbo three cyl powered unit is 04 with just over 1,000 hours. I look at the mechanical governor vs the second 25kw which is an 2014 with only 95hours and powered by a 4 cyl Kubota non wet sleeve engine. I like the wet sleeve as I don’t much trust the machine shops down here in Colombia. It has an electronic governor. Which will be less problematic or is the electronic so reliable it shouldn’t be a consideration?
Will a naturally aspirated engine usually go more hours than a turbo Diesel engine?
Also is a four cylinder engine with a smaller lighter piston going to live longer than a turbo engine with three larger heavier pistons.

Here is the kicker. The forth genset on the page is a 30 kw kohler with a three cyl 2.9 John Deere engine also it’s a different engine number but its rated at the same hp as the engine in the 25kw. I’m wondering if has the same fuel consumption as the 25kw until it exceeds 25kw loads??

Please take a look at the specs of the three and give your opinion as to the pros and cons of each unit. The tier rating makes no difference here in colombia I know some of you guys deal with generators on a daily basis!

I looked at aurora generators. That’s where I got pricing on new units. The hardy generator web page is down for some reason.
These units I’m looking at are about 5k less than a comparable new unit with sound enclosure

How often should the injectors be service and cleaned? Thanks in advance for any info...

I would probably go with the one that you can get parts the easiest for


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[Coug]

I would probably go with the one that you can get parts the easiest for

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Both Kohler and Cummins have worldwide parts distribution, as do John Deere and Kubota, so likely a toss up either way.


Nearby there is a dealer/distributor that covers both Kohler and Cummins generators that claim to have trained and certified techs. This is for marine application, but there isn't going to be much difference between marine use and prime power, so they should be good for both parts and service if they make house calls.
Might give them a call first, see if they do send techs out and if they will do on site repairs, or if you'd have to take it in to them for repair.

https://www.noonsite.com/business/todomar-albornoz/

 

[Chainbreaker]

...What do you think of fuel consumption and longevity of a turbo vs N/a diesel?

I agree four smaller pistons should put lest strain on the rotating assm and therefore live a longer life and less cylinder pressure will help in this refused as well but due to the 24/7/365 operation the best set up for fuel efficiency is really important. Thanks for your input!

I would call Abraham Generator Sales first thing Monday morning and ask them the mfg's projected fuel burn rates for the gensets you are interested in at various loads...1/4, 1/2, 3/4, & 100%. That should get you in the ballpark of what to expect on fuel consumption. I can certainly understand that fuel consumption on an island is of paramount importance. I think the suggestion of trying to use solar for some of your needs is a long term goal to consider.

My experiences with turbo's on gas engines in cars is that they tend increase fuel burn. But that may be due to lead footing it in turbo'd cars. One of my cars is a bi-turbo V6 2.7L S4 Audi and no matter how conservative I try to drive, its gas mileage is not great. On the other hand, I have a 5.9L Turbo Cummins Ram HD truck and it does OK fuel wise especially when loaded & towing considering the weight factor weight. But that's apples & oranges comparing gas to diesel turbo's. To me if the engine is smaller (less pistons & displacement) and boosted via turbo each cylinder is doing more work as compared to a normally aspirated engine with more cylinders. But there is drag and rotating mass to take into consideration. The fuel burn rate projections supplied by mfg's should sort this out though.

Now regarding complexity and failure points... a turbo'd engine typically has more complexity/parts to fail vs a normally aspirated engine. Turbo bearings failures, oil seals failing allowing oil into intake air, coking of oil if right oil is not used & shutdown too hot are some of the potential issues that could be encountered in a turbo'd engine. If a turbo'd engine is not run with enough load it does not get hot enough you run the risk of wet stacking.

As far as the 25 kw normally aspirated Kubota, if it was broken in right and you use a good quality synthetic oil (Rotella T6 full synthetic, etc.) it should run a very very long time. The Japanese do a really good job of engineering and putting their engines together right.

Anyway, these are just my opinions for what its worth...I'm not a diesel mechanic or engine builder and don't have any experience using any of the generators you are considering.

 

[Chainbreaker]

On the data sheet for the Kubota engine used on the Cummins genset I noticed that it uses a belt-less design for fan/alternator. So, there is no belt to maintain or break/replace.

"Durable and reliable belt-free design. The new Kubota BG engine includes a durable and dependable solid gear train that gets the job done without the use of belts"

There is an inconsistency though, if I am reading the Kubota Spec Sheet on the V3300 engine correctly. On the spec sheet Coug supplied it states: "Stable, predictable power. A unique fly-ball governor system stabilizes and regulates energy output for safe, predictable performance."

However, Abraham's spec's state: "Electronic Governor Mfg. by Precision Governors".

Perhaps Cummins somehow went with an electronic governor, or is that a typo?

So, I would ask Abraham Generator Sales which is it?

 

[simp5782]

You might see about one of the military seabox units. They sold a good many off awhile back. Big diesel/electric freezer

 

[Chainbreaker]

If fuel consumption is a driving factor here is another generator to consider from Hardy Diesel. BTW, Hardy Diesel website has been up for me.

View attachment kubota-sq-21.pdf

 

[Coug]

If fuel consumption is a driving factor here is another generator to consider from Hardy Diesel. BTW, Hardy Diesel website has been up for me.

View attachment 774945

Slightly better fuel consumption at full load, but that's comparing a 20kw unit to a 30kw unit. Running the 30KW unit at only 20KW load will be similar or even better fuel economy than the 20KW at full load. Plus it gives a nice safety margin on parts and output, less overall stress on the unit for the same load.

Downside would be having to load the unit up high enough to prevent or get rid of wet stacking that can occur with diesels with light engine loads, but since this is replacing 2 5kws and possibly handling the load that's part time on a 30kw unit, I'd opt for the larger of the available options.

 

[Chainbreaker]

If he has done his load calculations carefully he should try to find a genset that will be loaded greater than 50% and aim for 75% consistent load if possible to prevent wet stacking and still allow some headroom for higher infrequent loads. If he goes with too much kW headroom he has excess kW that may go unused which means larger gen-head & engine mass to keep in motion. I don't know what the sweet-spot for his kW needs are but if he can determine that it should help determine the right sized genset.

Though this is a somewhat tricky situation...as he indicates his business is growing, likely increasing future kW requirements, but he has to optimize his genset for fuel economy (island fuel concerns) and existing load (wet stacking) while also allowing for genset redundancy (becoming too dependent on 100% uptime).

Discounting what he already has for generators and looking towards the future...It would seem better to size to current needs + ~10% (less costly?) hitting the sweet-spot and then buy additional generators as the business grows. Given his comments, fuel economy seems more important vs trying to future proof his genset.

Just kicking around ideas...I'm glad he has to make the final call!

 

[Philratcliffe]

The turbo uses some of the waste heat and turns it into extra power by increasing the amount of air entering the engine. When you compare a turbo to a non turbo engine that are otherwise the same, the turbo engine will make more power, and work much better at higher altitudes.
Considering you are on an island, altitude probably isn't going to be an issue.

Looking at the specs on the engines, at full load the Kubota will burn almost 2.5 gallons per hour, where the John Deere is rated at about 14lbs/hr, translates to 2 gallons per hour full load. That's around 20% more fuel burned in the Kubota, which eliminates that one if fuel efficiency is a primary factor.


One other thing to note, the Kohler gensets here are shown with their standby power ratings. When rated for prime power, reduce the numbers by 10%. This allows for temporary loads such as cycling motors and such.


http://www.kubotaengine.com/assets/documents/Kubota_Spec_Sheet_V3300_Standby.pdf

https://airgeninc.com/johndeere/pdf/jd/generator-drive-engines/EPA-Tier1/3029TF150_D.pdf


As for mechanical vs electronic governor, the main reason they change is because of emissions output, mechanical isn't fast enough and when the engine runs outside it's rated specs, even slightly, the emissions change. Electronic governor is much faster and more precise, and will stay much closer to 60HZ as load is applied, where the mechanical one typically starts out a little above 61hz and is allowed to drop down below 59hz at full load. These days either way is kind of a toss up.


With the Kubota eliminated due to fuel consumption, given the choice between the first and 4th units I'd probably take the 4th for your application. Larger built in fuel tank, and it's been stationary it's entire life, as opposed to bouncing around on a trailer and operated in unknown conditions. Also a month of runtime difference. Larger fuel tank, I'm not sure how you fill up but a 60 gallon vs a 260 gallon tank means filling it more at a time, but a lot less often, every 5-7 days instead of every 1-2 depending on load. Might be some way to rig auxiliary fuel feed to it, but I haven't checked.
The gen head on the 1st one is reconfigurable, which you don't need. They are both good heads, but simpler is better. If you don't need 3 phase or other voltages it's just not needed, and if you ever need to get it rebuilt simple is better.

Thanks so much. Some really great info there. I like that the 25 and 35kw kohler is the same three cyl turbo JD engine. I read on the 805s with them the burn about 1.3gph @50% load. I will have about 20kw load constantly

I will use my 3 005s for back up and to power my rowpu when I have to make water which will be 4-6 12hour runs a month.

We have a number of additional rims I will build this next year but 90% of them only have two led light. Ulna amd an oscillating fan so it 90watts per room. I’m bringing a huge ice machine two washer/gas dryer, a lot of things down in the container that consume electricity. I was planning to run that stuff at night when all our rooms have he ac turned on we currently only supply ac at night. The 005s as durable machine and I bought three running units and one with a bad engine for parts for less money than the one kohler. So the fuel efficient kohler will be my main generator that will run 24/7/365 until it is down for maint or time for a rebuilt which I can do here in the island due to it being a wet sleeve engine. It’s 900 dollars for a complete rebuild kit will sleeves etc. I just send out the heads for a valve job

Going forward if I need a little more power I can run a 002 for a little more power. I much prefer that thank buying a 50kw amd much higher fuel burn. There is another hotel here and they run the ac in all their rooms even empty ones to load the generator. I don’t want to be that guy lol. From what I read on the 005s there isn’t much of a diff in fuel burn between medium and heavy load.

I also bought two rebuilt white 298 diesels for the 005 complete and they are 4 valve head in the engine. Do all the 005s have 4 valve heads?

Thanks so much for all the info I feel really good about this purchase. It’s been a pita finding parts for the 002s and I think it’s the same for the 005s. So with all my spares I should be good for 15 years! Heck only 8,300 hours in a year! Thanks again