831a with no power to the lugs.

[jmark]

Hey folks,
New to the site. Glad I found it and hope to gain or give some insights from/to fellow members.
Just brought home a newly "purchased" 802a. First thing I notice was the circuit interrupt switch was broken off. Could not seem to move it up or down using a pair of pliers to grab the nub.
Pulled the switch and found another online that matched PN # that was on the broken one. Installed new switch and started the generator up. The dial indicator shows 120 volts and the convenience plugs work. The circuit breaker light is not lit up but will light when pushed in. As for the new switch, I thought by just the look of it that it had three positions. Up, middle, and down. However when I push it up and release it just moves back to the mid position and same goes for pushing it down. So i am wondering if the broken switch I pulled was someones idea of a temp fix. The paint around the switch was not scratched like it had be changed but not sure. No other warning lights on. No interlock switches ? I had the lid and lug panels open while doing this. I am new to the generators, going to pick up an 803a next week. Let the education begin. Will be doing some manual reading I'm sure. Have a few other matters but this is the most obvious.

 

[Scoobyshep]

They are supposed to be momentary. And there are indeed no interlocks on the doors. They are designed to be used by semi competent adults.

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[jmark]

i think i qualify as semi...but i could be delusional as well ! Thanks for the help

 

[Scoobyshep]

Any time. Good luck

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[Ray70]

The K1 circuit interruptor system is relatively easy to troubleshoot. If you push up and hold the switch do you get any power to lugs or the light come on while holding it? If not, first thing to do is take off the top cover to access the K1 relay in the back left corner behind the wall where your AC selector switch is. Looking at the 4 small wires on the front of the K1 relay they are marked left to right X, Y, 11, 12.
X should be getting 24V+ from the fuel solenoid with the machine running. Y will be 24V- from the switch you replaced, passing through the overload relay.
11 and 12 act as a switch to illuminate the indicator light.
Disconnect the wire from the Y terminal and tap the end of the wire so it can't touch anything. Put a jumper wire from Y to the ground stud ( or any 24V- ) just behind the relay on the bulkhead wall. Start the machine and see if you have power at the lugs and if the indicator is on. If it is, you have a problem in the switch circuit or overload relay. If the interruptor does not close when jumpered, whack it with a rubber mallet and try again ( don't laugh, this works most of the time )
Another way to test with the machine off is put 24V+ to X from the battery and 24V- from any source and K1 should clunk when power is applied.
CAUTION: do not allow 24V+ to touch the Y wire , it will fry the overload relay... just ask how I know.
When you replaced your switch I assume you have the diode jumper in place and oriented correctly?

 

[Guyfang]

		S5 Switch​
From​	Wire #​	Wire #​	From​
​	​	1​	4​	​	​
​	​	2​	5​	152B​	TB5-16​
K8-7​	147A​	3​	6​	100AU​	TB5-7​
		CR3 diode is mounted between terminals 2 and 5. The Positive side is attached to terminal 5.​

Diode polarity. The tip of the triangle is Negative, (-). The Flat end is Positive, (+).

 

[jmark]

Ok so was pretty happy about finding this site cause it looks like a great source of info...thinking gee if i ask a question now , while at work, i might have and answer by the time i go home. Then i can get busy.... One problem with that is i was going by memory. Not my best card. To wit my generator is in fact a 831a . I suspect there will be similarities in this issue between what i first posted and now. Apologies to those who have responded. if i have not wasted too much of your time i will clarify and hope for some new advise. The switch i replaced is labeled S5 and no the circuit interrupt light DS6 does not come on when moving the switch and the bulb is good. at no time do i have power. I promise to be accurate in my future posts Thanks again all.

 

[jmark]

i also wasted lots of time, paper and ink printing the wron manual

 

[jmark]

now i see the gen set i am getting next week is an 802a so all is not lost.

 

[Scoobyshep]

So it never produces power? Are you following the startup instructions precisely? These units typically need to flash the field windings when starting.

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[Coug]

So it never produces power? Are you following the startup instructions precisely? These units typically need to flash the field windings when starting.

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According to first post, there is power at the convenience outlets, so that would indicate that it is producing power, just not getting to the lugs.

 

[Scoobyshep]

According to first post, there is power at the convenience outlets, so that would indicate that it is producing power, just not getting to the lugs.

Yea and later he contradicts it

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[Guyfang]

Could be worse! And you are sure not the only one to get it mixed up. Not to worry.

 

[Guyfang]

Yea and later he contradicts it

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Sorry, dont see that. I read that the volt meter read 120 volts and the 120 volt outlets work. Just no voltage at the terminals.

 

[jmark]

No power at lugs. Conv outlets work. No light on DS6 when actuating new S5 switch.
Bulb is good. Reading up on manual.

 

[jmark]

 

[jmark]

120 voltage output on dial. power on conv. plugs. no power to the lugs. no indication light bulb is good. new S5 switch. no power on lugs and no light even if holding S5 in closed postion.
Under troubleshoot guide it has a section for Circuit interrupter will not close.
test a: is Relay k12 defective: with start-run-stop in stop should get 0 hms across K12-12 and K12-4 check
test b: is Circ. interr. switch S5 defective. (replaced original damaged switch already) Switch closed S5-2 across S5-5 o ohms check
test c: Relay K15 or K1 defective. with gen running S5-2 across TB-3 or TP31 0 vdc. i am getting 27 volts (no matter S5 position) indicating a problem with K15.
also notice that K15 has a red light on in the lower leftside (?)
so would a defective K15 allow power to the conv. plugs and not the lugs ?
i hooked up a heat gun to the conv. plugs and on low power you can see the load increase and engine response. when i switch to high power it overloads (?)
voltage output goes to zero and i have to reset the 24volt breaker to reestablish power.

 

[Guyfang]

The output terminals and the 120 volt outlet are separate functions. Do not confuse them. If the heat gun pulls more amperage then the 120 volt outlet, then yes it will overload the 120 volt outlet.

 

[jmark]

Thanks Guyfang,
So this K15 relay is ~ $15. Anyone else want to weigh in on if this is the a likely suspect ?
I guess it does not hurt to have spare if it not the problem child.
Am i correct in thinking you should feel the relay switching if you touch it while operating the interrupt switch. I might try getting a mirror and see if there is any motion going on under the cover.

 

[kloppk]

With the set running the LED inside K15 should be illuminated.
The LED's in K12 and K14 should NOT be illuminated.

Here are a sequence of test steps to narrow down where the problem is.

1) Battle Short OFF
2) Connect your DC voltmeters negative lead to chassis ground.
3) Set you meter so it can read DC volts.
4) Start the generator
5) Measure the DC voltage the following points in order.
Toggle S5 to the CLOSE position and take each voltage reading.

K12-12 should be 0 volts
K12-4 should be 0 volts
K15-12 should be 0 volts
K15-8 should be 0 volts
S7-8 should be 0 volts
S5-5 should be 0 volts
S5-6 should be 0 volts
S5-4 should be 0 volts
S5-1 should be 0 volts
S5-2 should be 0 volts

Post up your findings when you can.