5 ton with a LDS-465-A1 won't start?

[67m-35winchtruck]

Back story is I purchased this truck last year from the forestry department. It did start up and run when I picked it up, but died within 4 miles of leaving. I figured old fuel and dirty filters and thought nothing more of it. once I got it home I drained the tanks and inspected the filters and refilled them, cracked the injector lines to bleed any air and get any old fuel out of them and cranked it. I have fuel to the injectors but it still will not start and run. after cranking for 10-15 seconds it will start for a second or so then die right back out, crank again for little while start again and dies right back out, but will not stay running. My past experience with these multifuels is they either run or they don't I've never had one act like this, and have tried everything I know to do or have learned in my years as a diesel mechanic. Any ideas or suggestions on where to go from here would be greatly appreciated! Because I really need this truck running to move an oil rig over onto off a deuce that has bad injection pump.

 

[Monkeyboyarmy]

Possibly a stuck governor rod. There's lots of posts about taking the side plate off and freeing up the mechanism.

 

[67m-35winchtruck]

Possibly a stuck governor rod. There's lots of posts about taking the side plate off and freeing up the mechanism.

Okay thanks! I'll try to find one of the post and do some reading.

 

[dmetalmiki]

It was standing a while. So, Take the center nut out of the Hydraulic Head, Rest with light pressure a small sound rod in the hole until it touches the top of the plunger, , We us a Philips screwdriver,
Pull the stop lever while cranking the engine (Person two), And make sure the quill is moving up and down in it's full stroke to pump diesel to the injectors.

Check the throttle control lever (Engine stop) rod is not stuck back under the side cover on the hydraulic head. two screws.

 

[67m-35winchtruck]

It was standing a while. So, Take the center nut out of the Hydraulic Head, Rest with light pressure a small sound rod in the hole until it touches the top of the plunger, , We us a Philips screwdriver,
Pull the stop lever while cranking the engine (Person two), And make sure the quill is moving up and down in it's full stroke to pump diesel to the injectors.

Check the throttle control lever (Engine stop) rod is not stuck back under the side cover on the hydraulic head. two screws.

Alrighty thanks! I pulled the stop off today and it was stuck in the 4 o'clock position. I got it moving and snapping back to the 7 o'clock position freely. I'll check the plunger tomorrow, it started smoking while I was cranking it after freeing the rod and started once and ran probably 5-10 seconds then died back out and stopped smoking any more while cranking. I'm making a filter run in the morning just to completely rule them out, I've seen much worse but they could still be starving it enough for it not to run.

 

[fasttruck]

The multifuel engine is supposed to have the fuel delivered to it under pressure. An electric transfer pump in the fuel tank is provided for this purpose. Does the pump run when the battery switch is turned on ? If there are vacuum leaks in the fuel line between the pump and the engine it will suck air instead of fuel and the pump, if running, will compensate for this.

 

[67m-35winchtruck]

The multifuel engine is supposed to have the fuel delivered to it under pressure. An electric transfer pump in the fuel tank is provided for this purpose. Does the pump run when the battery switch is turned on ? If there are vacuum leaks in the fuel line between the pump and the engine it will suck air instead of fuel and the pump, if running, will compensate for this.

Yeah the pump is running strong, and has what I would call good pressure at the bleeder between the secondary filters. it will spray fuel nearly to the fender when open.

 

[Floridianson]

It was standing a while. So, Take the center nut out of the Hydraulic Head, Rest with light pressure a small sound rod in the hole until it touches the top of the plunger, , We us a Philips screwdriver,
Pull the stop lever while cranking the engine (Person two), And make sure the quill is moving up and down in it's full stroke to pump diesel to the injectors.

Check the throttle control lever (Engine stop) rod is not stuck back under the side cover on the hydraulic head. two screws.

Just to add it is the plunger that moves up and down not the quill shaft. No big deal but the quill shaft is what rotates the plunger by way of the plunger drive gear. I believe the problem with trying to check plunger movement is so far no one has measured how far the movement is when the timing button is on and correct or when the timing button has fallen off. Think m35 tom had a close guess or the correct measurement but I am forgetting what it was. The problem is if you do not know the correct measurement when correct even when the button has fallen off the plunger will still move some. To me this is not the correct way to measure the throw of the plunger or to check to see if the timing button has come off. Now if the plunger is sticking some people if I remember have had luck with a wooden dowel rod and a light tap to get the plunger unstuck and the timing button has stayed on.

 

[Floridianson]

Ok myself here is where I might start. First have all three fuel filter or know that you have all three good filters. Then in running down a no start fuel problem it is easer if the in tank fuel pump is working. Myself I just open the bleeder screw between the secondary fuel filter and final filter. Now with just the master switch on the in tank fuel pump will push air and or fuel out of it. If you open it to far it will shoot out about 5 feet so just crack it till you see fuel coming out under some pressure. For testing in tank fuel pressure we use a low scale pressure gage and it comes in around 4 to 7 psi if you wanted to check it but as said myself If I see any pressure out of the bleeder I know that that is enough to circulate fuel through the head and back to the tank with the motor not running.
Now as said myself I would remove the timing cover / some call it the shut down cover and it is quick and easy as it is just two flat head screws. After the cover is off we are looking for the fuel control unit assembly to be free and moving without sticking. When the motor is not running the lever on the fuel control should look like it is about the 7 o'clock position. With you finger and very little pressure you should be able to push it towards the fire wall or rear wards. Now when you let it go it will snap back to the 7 o'clock position. If the fuel control is working correct I would then check the delivery valve and my finger is pointing at it in the pic. Be very careful when you remove it so do not do it in the dirt if you can help it or have a tarp or rag under the head because when you remove the plug there is a small spring behind it. It will not shoot out but you need to catch it or get hold of it so you do not loose it. Inside of the hole is the delivery valve and it has a flat groove in it and with a small flat blade screw driver you can rotate it and it might come out or with help have someone turn on master switch to start in tank fuel pump and you catch and or twist the screw driver/ delivery valve and it should come out. Believe it is magnet can also be used to pull out the delivery valve if it is magnet. It should be free and clean and when you are twisting it it should rotate easy and not be stuck or sticky. If we have fuel flowing through the head and back to the tank and the fuel control is moving free and correct plus the delivery valve is clean and moving free we can move on. I some times do not like removing the head center plug as some times there has been a seating problem when you go to install it. But also if we / you have removed the head center plug with just the in tank pump running and making some pressure with the plug out there will be fuel coming out of the hole. The deuce injecting system is not complicated but there are things that need to work hand in hand so to speak. So what we have checked as in in tank pumping some pressure through the head back to the tank. the fuel control assembly is
moving as it should and the delivery valve is free of crud or stuck to me if there is still a no start I would be thinking the button has fallen off. Now the plunger has been known to stick but I have not seen many post's of it happening. Here as said above in the other post a wooden dowel rod has broken them free but some times that also knocks off the plunger timing button and might have even broken the plunger guild. Just as a side note we do not have to bleed the injectors on a Deuce and when ever you leave the truck and shut it down leave the pull shut down cable handle pulled out and leave it that way. This way if the fuel control unit assembly ever sticks it will not be stuck in the wide open position but in the shut down position. It is much better to not start than to go to wide open throttle. Also just trying to remember but the the plunger should move up and down I am thinking but do not quoit me close to 5/16 inch of travel when button is on. I have an excuse I am old, grumpy and can not remember squat.

 

[Floridianson]

The multifuel engine is supposed to have the fuel delivered to it under pressure. An electric transfer pump in the fuel tank is provided for this purpose. Does the pump run when the battery switch is turned on ? If there are vacuum leaks in the fuel line between the pump and the engine it will suck air instead of fuel and the pump, if running, will compensate for this.

Yep the most common problem with air in the system seems to be the rubber hose on the in tank pump in the tank. It does not take much pressure just need to keep a little flow going through the head for it to start. Yes good to have the correct pressure to help performance but if the system is closed and not opened the truck should still start with the in tank not making pressure. The booster pump will be kicking in as soon as we start cranking it. There has been even where the pressure relief valve on the secondary fuel filter was wide open and the truck still started but no performance. Looks as though he said he has good pressure at the bleed so I am thinking there is flow through the head back to the tank so if nothing else is wrong it should fire. Looks like there are some things for him to check and report back.

 

[Floridianson]

Here you can see the delivery valve with the little spring. If the pic came out well enough you can see the slot. Kind of reminds me of a needle and seat you see in a carburetor and float set up.

 

[Floridianson]

Just a thought about air in the system for anybody to check. First would be the bleeder at the secondary filter when the alleged air is in question, When you have the problem before you try and start the engine again just turn on just the in tank and check for a good steady stream with no air in sight, Second test can be done first with just the in tank running then try with the engine running. We would take off the return line at the fuel tank and a clean jug with just enough fuel in the bottom to cover the hose / pipe. With just the in tank pump and then again with the truck running we should see no air coming out the pipe / hose that is in the jug and a good steady stream with about 30 psi at idle.

 

[67m-35winchtruck]

The local napa finally got my filters, they had both the secondary filters but of course had to order the primary in from another store. So by the time I got them and got home the rain has moved in, so it'll be a little bit before I can report back anything. I'd like to thank everyone for all the help and information so far, and I hope everyone has a wonderful Thanksgiving!

 

[Floridianson]

Well I am not the best teacher and can drag things out but bottom line. If the system has not been opened / fuel filters changed or opening a fuel feed line and allowing air into the system the truck has a head full of fuel and it's feed line is full of fuel even with a non working in tank pump then everything else is correct then it should /will start. So we only need to bleed bleed screw after filter change. So myself after your filter change and you bleed the bleed screw let the in tank still run while you drink a beer or smoke a cig as it does not hurt anything. It is just circulating the fuel back to the tank. A working in tank pump can make a speedy filter change to get the air out and most people could not tell the high speed performance difference if it stopped working. Also main advantage is in a combat environment or civilian situation and you run out of fuel we just add fuel and bleed the bleed screw. Here we are up and running again fast but no need to bleed the injectors like some engines. So to carry on when all is correct / checked we just need fuel sitting or circulating through the head without air. Then we need the fuel control unit assembly free and working correct. From there we need a non clogged / gummed up delivery valve, Then if the plunger is not stuck and or the plunger guide has not been broken or we lost the timing button then the truck should at least start if everything else is correct. That is an in injector problems, broken quill shaft or we get into performance problems. Hope that is not so long of a read / confusing post.

 

[Floridianson]

I think they found Waldo so we / you will find the problem.

 

[67m-35winchtruck]

I got the filters changed and everything bleed out, still having the same issue. everything that has been suggested checks out, plunger moves freely, delivery valve came out good and clean. I've cleaned everything I know to clean, and put some treatment in the fuel even though I know it fresh and shouldn't be an issue. I'm going to try and post a link to a video of exactly what the truck is doing.

 

[Floridianson]

For smitts and giggles lets check the timing. HB on it's correct mark, four bolt advance window on it's mark and red / scribe on the Head gear just about one tooth off it's pointer to the rear. She is getting fuel that's for sure. Also injector lines in correct order.

 

[67m-35winchtruck]

For smitts and giggles lets check the timing. HB on it's correct mark, four bolt advance window on it's mark and red / scribe on the Head gear just about one tooth off it's pointer to the rear. She is getting fuel that's for sure. Also injector lines in correct order.

Okay thanks I'll check the timing and and double check the lines. Would it be possible for the timing to jump while driving the truck? Only reason I ask is what ever is going on had to happen to it when I was coming home with it and it died 3 miles down the road, at this point I would probably argue with someone that it would run at all if I hadn't seen it run great and drive when I picked it up.

 

[Monkeyboyarmy]

Water in the fuel? I see the stack blowing vapor out as if the injectors are delivering water instead of fuel. Could just be vapor from the air but looks excessive.

 

[67m-35winchtruck]

Water in the fuel? I see the stack blowing vapor out as if the injectors are delivering water instead of fuel. Could just be vapor from the air but looks excessive.

It shouldn't have any water in it, I drained the tanks when I got it home and put fresh fuel in it and had the same issue i'm having now. I also put some fuel treatment in when I changed the filters today in case it had drawn some moisture from setting the last few months till I got enough time to work on it again.