Operating Generators in Flood and / or Flash Flood Zones

[peapvp]

It has been a while since I last checked in due to just being busy.

A few years ago I posted a Thread here under Generators with suggestions on how to prepare and setup Generators in Hurricane / Tornado Zones. I hope the interested reader found these threads useful and of value.

The recent extreme Flash Floods in Western Germany got me to think to start a new thread on this topic and offer some suggestions to those folks who live in these Zones and utilize Generators as Backup.

The latest revelations in the West German Flash Floods from normally very small creeks showed a vulnerability of Generators installed in such Zones.

The German Authorities had estimated a Flash Flood of 5 Meters ( about 15 feet above normal ) and it turned out that the Flash Floods reached heights of 10 to 11 Meters (30 to 35 feet) above normal level's.

That caught many residents off guard. 5 Counties had declared a state of emergency by 5pm local time when the height was at 4 Meters with the peak being expected at 6am at 5 meters.

The preceding rainfall was at 200 Liter per square meter for several hours but it had stopped raining at around 3pm that afternoon while all affected creeks were still rising.

These known facts should lead to the following preparations for those owners who operate their Genset through a ATS:

1. During any disaster the utility power will go off, either by force of nature or as precaution by the utility companies

2. Once the utility power goes off the ATS takes over and starts the Generator then transferring power.

3. Recommendation:

If you live in a Flood Zone you may want to install a water level monitor in your basement or lowest part of your house. The trigger point should be set to be about 5" to 10" below the lowest electrical outlet.

The Water Level Monitor should have a dry relay contact besides the standard audible alarm and wired in series into the two wire start between ATS and Generator with it's Normally Open Contact. Meaning the internal dry relay is always powered on and the normally open contact closed when the monitor is working and there is no water detected.

This is a fail safe configuration. Once the unit fails or detects water it will deenergize the relay and open the normally open contact starting the shut down process of the Generator automatically and reducing the risk of electrocution in a flood situation.

Several of the 180 Victims in Germany were killed by electrocution rather then drowning.

My condolences to their families and friends and my best whishes for those who have lost all.

 

[peapvp]

I should add one thing to this post, the above recommendation also applies to any independent power system outside of the utility grid i.e. Photovoltaic Systems, windmill systems etc.

 

[peapvp]

The conversions as follows:


200 liter per sq meter =
4.90847735 US gallons per sqft in one hour precipitation

1 meter = 3.28 Feet

 

[Chainbreaker]

Very good info for those who have an ATS or are planning for installing one. I don't exactly recall seeing your thread on "how to prepare and setup Generators in Hurricane / Tornado Zones" other than a thread I recall some time ago about securing generators from hurricane force winds, etc. If you have a link please post.

I don't know if this was covered elsewhere but often flooding requires quick evacuation. If I lived in a flood prone area I would consider having a "go-now bug-out plan" established in advance. At what approaching flood level do you abandon your home before you become isolated & stranded in your house? I recall post hurricane pictures of people stranded on roofs, in trees, etc. Hard to predict how bad flooding will be in the case of hurricanes due to a lot of variables, but rising creeks/rivers because of excessive/torrential rainfall often give some advance warning if you are located in a known flood plane.

If a generator is already mobile on a trailer or can be hoisted in PU bed or onto a utility trailer one should consider moving generator to higher ground prior to flooding as part of your evacuation plan. I'm sure it would be nice to have generator power after the flood subsides even if its to power a temporary encampment & tools while house is restored, or rebuilt, to livable condition.

 

[peapvp]

Very good info for those who have an ATS or are planning for installing one. I don't exactly recall seeing your thread on "how to prepare and setup Generators in Hurricane / Tornado Zones" other than a thread I recall some time ago about securing generators from hurricane force winds, etc. If you have a link please post.

I don't know if this was covered elsewhere but often flooding requires quick evacuation. If I lived in a flood prone area I would consider having a "go-now bug-out plan" established in advance. At what approaching flood level do you abandon your home before you become isolated & stranded in your house? I recall post hurricane pictures of people stranded on roofs, in trees, etc. Hard to predict how bad flooding will be due to hurricanes due to a lot of variables, but rising creeks/rivers due to excessive/torrential rainfall often give some advance warning if you are located in a known flood plane.

If a generator is already mobile on a trailer or can be hoisted in PU bed or onto a utility trailer one should consider moving generator to higher ground prior to flooding as part of your evacuation plan. I'm sure it would be nice to have generator power after the flood subsides even if its to power a temporary encampment & tools while house is restored, or rebuilt, to livable condition.

Chainbreaker, I had to search for them too. It has been a while, time flies

Hurricane preparedness - Is your MEP GENSET Ready for the next Season?

Group B Questions:

 

[NDT]

Here in the flood prone Houston area, scores of people are getting natural gas generators after our generation collapse during the freeze we had. These generators are all the “Generac” type with the plastic house, and yup everyone plops them down at ground level in the back yard. Not wise.

 

[nextalcupfan]

Considering one of the main issues with the Texas freeze was lack of Natural Gas availability, I'm not sure Natural Gas generators are the right way to go...

 

[Guyfang]

Great post! But....................................

The recent extreme Flash Floods in Western Germany got me to think to start a new thread on this topic and offer some suggestions to those folks who live in these Zones and utilize Generators as Backup.
After living here in Germany for a very long time, I can truthfully say, I know of no privat person who has back up power. Not one. I am sure someplace there is, but I worked here for over 20 years as an electrician, and never saw even one. Farmers, and factorys, yes. But normal people, no. They are the least prepared country I have ever seen.

The latest revelations in the West German Flash Floods from normally very small creeks showed a vulnerability of Generators installed in such Zones.

The German Authorities had estimated a Flash Flood of 5 Meters ( about 15 feet above normal ) and it turned out that the Flash Floods reached heights of 10 to 11 Meters (30 to 35 feet) above normal level's.

That caught many residents off guard. 5 Counties had declared a state of emergency by 5pm local time when the height was at 4 Meters with the peak being expected at 6am at 5 meters.

The preceding rainfall was at 200 Liter per square meter for several hours but it had stopped raining at around 3pm that afternoon while all affected creeks were still rising.

These known facts should lead to the following preparations for those owners who operate their Genset through a ATS:

1. During any disaster the utility power will go off, either by force of nature or as precaution by the utility companies

2. Once the utility power goes off the ATS takes over and starts the Generator then transferring power.

3. Recommendation:

If you live in a Flood Zone you may want to install a water level monitor in your basement or lowest part of your house. ( Many folks who live in flood areas have this monitor, and if you do live in such an area, you can NOT get insurance without a monitor) The trigger point should be set to be about 5" to 10" below the lowest electrical outlet.

The Water Level Monitor should have a dry relay contact besides the standard audible alarm and wired in series into the two wire start between ATS and Generator with it's Normally Open Contact. Meaning the internal dry relay is always powered on and the normally open contact closed when the monitor is working and there is no water detected.

This is a fail safe configuration. Once the unit fails or detects water it will deenergize the relay and open the normally open contact starting the shut down process of the Generator automatically and reducing the risk of electrocution in a flood situation. (never saw, or installed this type configuration. The only thing the monitors I installed did, was wake the dead when the water started to pour into the sump in the cellar.)

Several of the 180 Victims in Germany were killed by electrocution rather then drowning.

My condolences to their families and friends and my best whishes for those who have lost all.

Open to read comments,

 

[peapvp]

Great post! But....................................



Open to read comments,

interesting observation, I have been now in America for thirty years this month, August 14th to be exact.

until my departure from Germany which was basically during the Cold War, Germany’s civil emergency response system was quite different.

Every town had multiple sirens which were exercised ever month and all fire alarms in the town to summon the volunteer fire fighters to the station was done by those sirens until the early 80’s when each fire fighter received his own personal pager.
From what I understand know is, that many municipalities decommissioned those sirens in the late 90’s early 2000’s as the main thread of a nuclear war was basically over - the ABC alarm was also part of those sirens duty, besides fire and civil alarms.

so when this flash flood hit, there was no functioning alarm system in place to sufficiently warn the public.

The responsible county commissioner in the most hard hit county is now under investigation for involuntary manslaughter as he had been notified by the federal government of the impending flash flood by about noon time on that day from the 13th to 14th of July.

Flood insurance is only mandatory if one has a mortgage.

Many homeowners do not have flood insurance because their home have been paid off.

so, it really depends on each individuals personal situation and circumstance.

Good to hear from you Guyfang

 

[Ray70]

Unbelievable! 4.9 GL/SF/Hr. of rain, that must have been one hell of a scary sight to see. Something like 8"/hour?
If we get a 1" / hour storm it's considered heavy rain. 2" is a torrential down pour. 3" is more than we saw during the 100 yr. flood in 2008.
8" / hour??, I can't even imagine living through that!

 

[Guyfang]

interesting observation, I have been now in America for thirty years this month, August 14th to be exact.

until my departure from Germany which was basically during the Cold War, Germany’s civil emergency response system was quite different.

Every town had multiple sirens which were exercised ever month and all fire alarms in the town to summon the volunteer fire fighters to the station was done by those sirens until the early 80’s when each fire fighter received his own personal pager. ( This is still the case here in Burgkunstadt. The pager and the sirens both go off when there is a fire. Every Saturday, at 11:30 the sirens go off for about 25-30 seconds, to test them. Having said that, no one has any idea what the siren means, other then "Fire". Ours has three different tone functions. One tone means Burgkunstadt. If the emergency is in Altenkundstadt or Weismain, the tone changes, to let folks know that its a reinforcement call.)

From what I understand know is, that many municipalities decommissioned those sirens in the late 90’s early 2000’s as the main thread of a nuclear war was basically over - the ABC alarm was also part of those sirens duty, besides fire and civil alarms.

so when this flash flood hit, there was no functioning alarm system in place to sufficiently warn the public.

The responsible county commissioner in the most hard hit county is now under investigation for involuntary manslaughter as he had been notified by the federal government of the impending flash flood by about noon time on that day from the 13th to 14th of July. (He was not the only one who is going to be in hot water.)

Flood insurance is only mandatory if one has a mortgage.

Many homeowners do not have flood insurance because their home have been paid off.

so, it really depends on each individuals personal situation and circumstance.

Good to hear from you Guyfang (Good to hear from you too!)

Open to read

 

[peapvp]

. Having said that, no one has any idea what the siren means, other then "Fire".

Well, I had to do some searching and found out two things. The German Government stopped subsidizing the Sirens for the local municipalities in 1992 already and the Volunteer Fire department in Fohrde, which is in the State of Brandenburg about 35 miles west of Berlin, made a video of the 5 different Siren Signals as I had remembered them from my childhood:

1. Oscillating Tone - 1 Minute
General Alarm for Public, High Water, Flooding, Severe Weather, Large Fire with Smoke
Close all windows, stay inside, turn on Radio / Television tune to local station, listen for loudspeaker announcements by Police / Fire Department

2. Oscillating Tone 12 Seconds - 12 Seconds OFF for 1 Minute
ABC Alarm
Close all windows, stay inside, turn on Radio / Television tune to local station, listen for loudspeaker announcements by Police / Fire Department

3. steady tone 1 minute
All Clear -

4. steady tone 12 Seconds, 12 seconds OFF for 1 minute
All volunteers to fire station - no meaning for public other then to clear roads and streets and give right of way to volunteers to get to fire station in their private vehicles or tractors in rural areas - Volunteers used hazard signal and yellow sign on car roof

5. Steady Tone 5 to 15 seconds
Test

 

[peapvp]

I am not quite sure if I am allowed to do this under this thread, but I am going to give it a try as it is for a good cause.

Many moons ago I went on trip with my buddies to a large cabin in the Black Forest for an extended weekend. This was in May 1986 to be exact



I am the one second from right.

now the fellow in AC/DC shirt is Gunnar Kreidel. On this Trip Gunnar told us in the wee hours of the morning that he would consider joining the THW ( Technische Hilfswerk) instead of serving 18 month in the Bundeswehr.
THW was founded in 1953 as civil emergency response service to aid fire departments with more technical equipment and if someone joined THW as volunteer for 10 years they would be exempt from compulsory military service which started in 1955

I have been following the flooding situation in Ahrtal region via YouTube.

One Youtuber posted a video of a Electric Company from near Heilbronn restoring electrical service to the houses where power can be restored aiding the utility companies by inspecting these house from basement to attic for safety.

Anyway, said Electrical Company had posted a Plea for donations by a Gunnar Kreidel.

thinking this names sounds familiar I decided to check the Facebook post and sure enough it was Gunnar

Gunnar had joined the THW and is now captain of a THW unit near Heilbronn and has spent the last two weeks in Ahrtal assisting the local volunteer fire departments




In his duty he was assigned to the volunteer fire department in Bad Neuenahr-Ahrweiler, assisting Local Fire Chief Markus Mandt.

Markus has lost two out of three of his fire stations as two off them literally floated away including 4 fire engines which had been moved to high grounds during the rescue phases as all volunteers had been called in to respond to emergencies.

Gunnars request for donations is as follows:

The fire chief Markus Mandt asks for donations via PayPal to his PayPal account to help those volunteer fire firefighters who where on duty rescuing. Some of those fire fighters because on duty could not save any of their personal belongings and do not have optional flood insurance.
This PayPal donation will go straight to those fire fighters via their fire chief

Markus Mandt Feuerwehr Services
PayPal: info@funkmelder.org

Funkmelder.org is Markus’s business
Name des Unternehmens:Marcus Mandt

Vorname:Marcus

Nachname:Mandt

Adresse:Idienstr. 71
53474 Bad Neuenahr-Ahrweiler
Deutschland

Handelsregisternummer:Stadt Bad Neuenahr-Ahrweiler Registriernummer 2003 584

USt-IDNr.E 237676714

Telefonnummer:026419065850

Faxnummer:02641-9065851

E-Mail-Adresse:ebay@funkmelder.org

Markus appointment as fire chief

Markus Mandt

 

[Guyfang]

I will see if he can do Überweisung. I dont do paypal.

 

[peapvp]

I will see if he can do Überweisung. I dont do paypal.

great - if you get the IBAN etc post it here please - I sent him a PayPal
And thank You

 

[peapvp]

For those who are unfamiliar with the term "Ueberweisung" :

Ueberweisung is the most common way to transfer money between checking accounts and to pay bills in Germany. We had this system since the late 60's, way before anyone had heard of PayPal, Cash app, Venmo and Apple Pay etc or internet in general.

It is a combination of EFT and FED Wire. Back in the days the banks had a small form with 3 carbon copies one would fill out by hand and drop it off at your local bank. The Money was usually transferred over night from your checking account to the recipient.

The goal was to eliminate payment by check as the processing was deemed expensive by the Banks.

Now you can do the Ueberweisung online. The Bank created for that a IBAN Number which is an encoded number of recipients checking account and routing number.

From the US you can do a Ueberweisung via Xoom to a Checking Account with a IBAN Number, Name and address of recipient in Germany.

The Fee is I think US$ 5.00 I have used this transfer method when buying things on eBay Germany and the seller, like Guyfang doesn't have a PayPal account and prefers Ueberweisung. It usually takes 3 to 4 Banking days to complete a transfer.

So, when Guyfang posts Markus's IBAN info and Address then you can Xoom your donation to him!

Thank you!