Cranking issue, '86 M1008, previously 12V converted

[DarkSeas]

Hey guys,
Finally getting my bearings with using the forums!

Here's the situation: I could get my truck to crank and fire up all the way until last weekend. Now it just makes a free spinning whirring sound.

Details: Turn the key to battery on, hold the glow plug button in for about 5 seconds 2-3 times, engage the key and the starter sounded like it was just whirring freely. Almost like a free spinning blender sound. High pitched and fast, like it's not meeting any resistance.

My thoughts: Dead batteries not pushing enough juice to starter, starter has a bad solenoid, flywheel is shot/missing teeth.

1. Dead batteries - I took out both batteries and put them on a battery charger for a couple hours each till both battery indicators were green. Hooked them back in the truck, went to crank, same exact sound, no differences. Not the batteries, in my opinion, but it was the easiest thing to check first.

2. Flywheel is shot - Yesterday I got up under the truck and took off the bolts for the access panel to get my eyes on the condition of the flywheel and see if I could see any issues with the little starter gear or anything. I couldn't get the panel completely out, but I got it pulled down about 3", enough to see the flywheel and starter gear connection point (sucker got caught on the transmission cooler lines). Flywheel looks fine, couldn't see any unusual wear on the starter gear or flywheel. I'm going to trust my gut and rule this one out.

3. (current objective) Starter solenoid is bad - Panel is still off from inspecting the flywheel (well, loose I guess ), I get back under the truck to start tackling the starter bolt, gently push on the starter toward the front end of the truck and the thing pivots along the bolt at the back end of the starter. I could make it swing by hand relatively easily like 2-3" back and forth. I haven't even touched the starter bolt yet, this can't be right... Maybe the bolt wasn't torqued down all the way? I couldn't see a bracket toward the front end of the starter, I just found the one bolt going up from the bottom that looks about 5" long that I haven't touched yet. I'm wondering if this sort of play is normal, because now I'm starting to think that maybe the starter was just loose and the rough idling of the motor the last time I had it fired up shook the starter and pivoted it just enough that it couldn't grab the flywheel anymore.

My doubts: I had the access panel off/dangling there haha, maybe it secured the starter before and kept it from pivoting? Am I missing a bolt or something? The amount of torque that starter puts out, I'd imagine it shouldn't move at all, at least not by hand...

Next steps: I still want to take the starter off and test it to see if I can make the little gear come out, verify that it's not the solenoid that's bad. If it's a bad solenoid, new 12V starter, put back in, and that's all she wrote. Now I'm starting to think what if it just pivoted or something just enough that the gears weren't contacting each other anymore? What if the starter is perfectly fine? It's too difficult to see up under the truck since I can't get the access panel out, I really wish I could set my phone up under the truck and record another start attempt to see if the starter gear comes out/not, that would tell me some things.

I was going to try and get the starter out yesterday, but I got fed up with the spiders and bugs all over me and in my hair and shirt so I went home after 2 hours of tinkering.

Any of you have any pointers or guidance for me?

 

[ezgn]

Hey guys,
Finally getting my bearings with using the forums!

Here's the situation: I could get my truck to crank and fire up all the way until last weekend. Now it just makes a free spinning whirring sound.

Details: Turn the key to battery on, hold the glow plug button in for about 5 seconds 2-3 times, engage the key and the starter sounded like it was just whirring freely. Almost like a free spinning blender sound. High pitched and fast, like it's not meeting any resistance.

My thoughts: Dead batteries not pushing enough juice to starter, starter has a bad solenoid, flywheel is shot/missing teeth.

1. Dead batteries - I took out both batteries and put them on a battery charger for a couple hours each till both battery indicators were green. Hooked them back in the truck, went to crank, same exact sound, no differences. Not the batteries, in my opinion, but it was the easiest thing to check first.

2. Flywheel is shot - Yesterday I got up under the truck and took off the bolts for the access panel to get my eyes on the condition of the flywheel and see if I could see any issues with the little starter gear or anything. I couldn't get the panel completely out, but I got it pulled down about 3", enough to see the flywheel and starter gear connection point (sucker got caught on the transmission cooler lines). Flywheel looks fine, couldn't see any unusual wear on the starter gear or flywheel. I'm going to trust my gut and rule this one out.

3. (current objective) Starter solenoid is bad - Panel is still off from inspecting the flywheel (well, loose I guess ), I get back under the truck to start tackling the starter bolt, gently push on the starter toward the front end of the truck and the thing pivots along the bolt at the back end of the starter. I could make it swing by hand relatively easily like 2-3" back and forth. I haven't even touched the starter bolt yet, this can't be right... Maybe the bolt wasn't torqued down all the way? I couldn't see a bracket toward the front end of the starter, I just found the one bolt going up from the bottom that looks about 5" long that I haven't touched yet. I'm wondering if this sort of play is normal, because now I'm starting to think that maybe the starter was just loose and the rough idling of the motor the last time I had it fired up shook the starter and pivoted it just enough that it couldn't grab the flywheel anymore.

My doubts: I had the access panel off/dangling there haha, maybe it secured the starter before and kept it from pivoting? Am I missing a bolt or something? The amount of torque that starter puts out, I'd imagine it shouldn't move at all, at least not by hand...

Next steps: I still want to take the starter off and test it to see if I can make the little gear come out, verify that it's not the solenoid that's bad. If it's a bad solenoid, new 12V starter, put back in, and that's all she wrote. Now I'm starting to think what if it just pivoted or something just enough that the gears weren't contacting each other anymore? What if the starter is perfectly fine? It's too difficult to see up under the truck since I can't get the access panel out, I really wish I could set my phone up under the truck and record another start attempt to see if the starter gear comes out/not, that would tell me some things.

I was going to try and get the starter out yesterday, but I got fed up with the spiders and bugs all over me and in my hair and shirt so I went home after 2 hours of tinkering.

Any of you have any pointers or guidance for me?

Does your starter have the required bracket- brace, attached to it to help hold the starter from breaking loose?

 

[DarkSeas]

Does your starter have the required bracket- brace, attached to it to help hold the starter from breaking loose?

I didn't see a bracket up towards the front. You're talking about the one that goes up against the block? The starter isn't original, it's the 12V model, I don't know if that should make a difference but I didn't see any bracket when I was under there yesterday. I saw it on the TM diagram that I had printed out but I didn't find one.

 

[ezgn]

I didn't see a bracket up towards the front. You're talking about the one that goes up against the block? The starter isn't original, it's the 12V model, I don't know if that should make a difference but I didn't see any bracket when I was under there yesterday. I saw it on the TM diagram that I had printed out but I didn't find one.

My guess is, that is your problem.

 

[DarkSeas]

10-4 man. I'll look up the part number and see if I can get a replacement. In the meantime I'll straighten her out check the torque on the back bolt and see if I can get her to crank over.

 

[ehuppert]

if you can pivot the starter you're missing a starter bolt. You stated "bolt", should be two....... Is one broken off???

 

[DarkSeas]

That's what my buddy and I are going back and forth about. He is swearing to me that there should be two bolts in the bottom of the starter, I only saw one (yes I did see a hole where a second could potentially go, but this is an aftermarket 12V starter, I'm not sure if the second bolt would have somewhere to go to anchor it down.) I know I am missing the bracket in the front of the starter, and according to the TM it looks like there's only 1 bolt in the bottom and a bracket on the front. (ref. TM 9-2320-289-20 , starter system maintenance 4-11)

 

[royalflush55]

You either have a broken bolt or a missing bolt. 2 bolts hold starter to block in addition to the front bracket.
It makes no difference if original or aftermarket starter.

 

[DarkSeas]

You either have a broken bolt or a missing bolt. 2 bolts hold starter to block in addition to the front bracket.
It makes no difference if original or aftermarket starter.

10-4. I will get back under the truck today and see if I'm missing a bolt or if it's broken. There was definitely an additional hole next to the one bolt I found on the bottom. Sounds like my friend was right... (not that I'm ever going to admit that ) If that bolt is broken up in there I have no idea how I'm going to extract it. I doubt it's broken up in there though, that would mean the end of it is broken off and the thread part is broken allowing it to pivot freely like it is. Fingers crossed I'm just missing a bolt.

 

[nyoffroad]

If it is broken, try using a sharp pointed center punch and hammer and tap it out or get a left-hand drill bit and they usually unscrew themselves.

 

[DarkSeas]

If it is broken, try using a sharp pointed center punch and hammer and tap it out or get a left-hand drill bit and they usually unscrew themselves.

Appreciate the advice man, thanks. Hopefully going to get back at this project when I get off work, so I should have an update by tomorrow. Hopefully I can get the old girl to crank and start again, that'd make me happy.

 

[DarkSeas]

Hahahaha I found my problem guys. One was in the starter and one was laying in the yard under where I had the truck. Gonna have to drill it out.

 

[nyoffroad]

Hahahaha I found my problem guys. One was in the starter and one was laying in the yard under where I had the truck. Gonna have to drill it out.

Try the left hand bit! 9 times out of 10 it will grab it and unscrew it/

 

[DarkSeas]

Try the left hand bit! 9 times out of 10 it will grab it and unscrew it/

My buddy's got a few at his shop and he's pretty straight with a drill, gonna get at that next week when he's available again and the weather clears up. He agreed though that a left handed bit should do the trick, thanks.

 

[ezgn]

Hahahaha I found my problem guys. One was in the starter and one was laying in the yard under where I had the truck. Gonna have to drill it out.

That is a bummer. You might look into a self centering drill bit. You might only have one chance to get it right. It might be worth it to take it in to a shop and let someone with the right tool and experience do the job.

 

[DarkSeas]

That is a bummer. You might look into a self centering drill bit. You might only have one chance to get it right. It might be worth it to take it in to a shop and let someone with the right tool and experience do the job.

I'm getting help on this project from two mechanic friends of mine, one who worked on CUCVs in the military and works on trucks/cars/motorcycles every day, and my other buddy has worked on cars/trucks, especially Chevys, all his life. He works at a hydraulic shop, but does a lot of diesel/motor and mechanical work every day. They've got the tools and know-how. For stuff like this, I just bring the beer I don't think they'd even let me attempt it myself, they had me pull the front driveshaft out yesterday so they could get the best possible angle to drill it out when we have the time next week. For the record though, I was definitely NOT the person who overtorqued the starter bolt, and we're all grateful it broke off and fell out in the yard instead of me driving it somewhere.

In the meantime, I'm going to be pulling belts off, looking for a power steering pump bracket, getting new bolts for the starter, and studying wiring diagrams and the forums while I wait for wiring harnesses to come in. I'm sure I'll be starting another thread titled "it'd be nice to have dash lights, a working gas gauge, and a working voltmeter" soon enough haha. Been looking that stuff up all day actually.

 

[ezgn]

I'm getting help on this project from two mechanic friends of mine, one who worked on CUCVs in the military and works on trucks/cars/motorcycles every day, and my other buddy has worked on cars/trucks, especially Chevys, all his life. He works at a hydraulic shop, but does a lot of diesel/motor and mechanical work every day. They've got the tools and know-how. For stuff like this, I just bring the beer I don't think they'd even let me attempt it myself, they had me pull the front driveshaft out yesterday so they could get the best possible angle to drill it out when we have the time next week. For the record though, I was definitely NOT the person who overtorqued the starter bolt, and we're all grateful it broke off and fell out in the yard instead of me driving it somewhere.

In the meantime, I'm going to be pulling belts off, looking for a power steering pump bracket, getting new bolts for the starter, and studying wiring diagrams and the forums while I wait for wiring harnesses to come in. I'm sure I'll be starting another thread titled "it'd be nice to have dash lights, a working gas gauge, and a working voltmeter" soon enough haha. Been looking that stuff up all day actually.

It sounds like you have it under control. Maybe the bolt broke off because it was not torqued enough. Either way it doesn't matter. A locktite starter bolt would be a mess to get out. Those bolts are designed to shear off as to not damage the block. I hope you get it out without any problems.

 

[DarkSeas]

It sounds like you have it under control. Maybe the bolt broke off because it was not torqued enough. Either way it doesn't matter. A locktite starter bolt would be a mess to get out. Those bolts are designed to shear off as to not damage the block. I hope you get it out without any problems.

I appreciate it man, I'll have an update by the end of next week about it I'm sure.

 

[ezgn]

I appreciate it man, I'll have an update by the end of next week about it I'm sure.

Google ( How to remove a broken bolt in a deep hole U- tube. ) He will show you how to make a drill guide to drill a straight hole into a broken bolt in a recessed hole. It is the perfect solution in my opinion. Ultimate Handyman is his name.