831a Starter Issues

[kendive]

Picked up an 831a and a 802a. The 802a works great except the fuel gauge and pops CB1 if I leave it in Prime & AUX to long but that's another day of playing around.

So back to the 831a. It was freight shipped so no oil and fuel. Had to break open the high pressure line at the injector and jump 24VDC from the 802a to run the pump (no batteries in 831a) and I cranked it until I got fuel up there and now it will start no issues with the pull start. Yes I put oil in it also...

I preformed the Electronic Governor checks and tweaks and loaded the 831a to 3kw blows some black smoke but seems to be going away with more use. I also overloaded it and it opens the contactor like it should. Seems like everything is good to go except I can't get it to start with the starter. You can hear K2 clunk and that's it.

I did all the checks in the Field Level Troubleshooting in the TM

Checked K15 pins 1 and 9 (0 ohms)

Battle Switch Short pins 1 and 2 of S7 (0 ohms)

Check K2 X1 to X2 with diode removed (54.7 ohms)

Check Engine Solenoid K2-A2 to TP31 (1.6 ohms)

Checked TB3 TP30 to TP31 (25.93 VDC all the time)

CB1 works

E-Stop works

Diode CR1 good

And then I did some extra checks that were not in this TM:

K2-A1 to TP31 (25.90 VDC)

K2-A2 to TP31 when I try to start (0 VDC) Thinking K2 may be bad??? looked on flee bay could not find one?

Update: Found an K2 CONTINUOUS DUTY SWITCH RELAY SOLENOID 24 VOLT 4-TERMINAL HEAVY DUTY 1115615 Pretty sure it would work.

Note Gov Actuator does let go from the magnet target when I try to start with start switch

Question. Would be ok to jump 24 VDC to K2-A2 to see if the starter works? I could make a fused jumper???

There is alot of info in this site and you all seem to be very smart with these gensets. I have been doing alot and alot of reading in here before I decided to post.

 

[Guyfang]

It should not hurt anything to jump the K2. Do you get any idiot lights?

 

[kendive]

It should not hurt anything to jump the K2. Do you get any idiot lights?

Nope no Faults. Only fault is Oil Pressure when I pull start but I clear it. I think That is normal when pull starting the 831a

I also know the low fuel light and system works. I was playing with it the other day and did not put much diesel in it. LOL

Also I don't think the TVS Diode would cause K2 to not work properly??? Or would it?

 

[kloppk]

If K2 is "clunking then the TVS diode is not an issue.
Should be fine to jump +24 volts to K2A2.

 

[kendive]

If K2 is "clunking then the TVS diode is not an issue.
Should be fine to jump +24 volts to K2A2.

Yea I figured the TVS Diode is good just had to bring it up.

Here is the video. Not sure if this site will let me post links yet will see???

I used my meter on DC Amps so at least this circuit I am jumping is fused and protected through the meter and I can also watch how many amps are being used. You can see I was quick to unhook the jump once it started up. Looks to me it was about 6 amps surge and then went down to 5 amps. Now this is no way the amps used to crank the engine. There are two big 4 gauge cables going to the starter straight from the battery They seem to have 24VDC all the time... K2 just passes a control voltage to tell the starter to do it's thing this is my guess. Sooo I think I have a bad K2 relay. So I swapped it with the pre heat one and no luck so they are probably both bad. I ordered one so far on (big auction site) $19. I will probably order another one today also.
Testing the relays I could not get continuity through them when I tested them. But if I unhooked the control wire from the started solenoid I would get maybe 16-18 VDC when I checked at K2-A2. I think this K2 is passing something but not allowing the amps...

At the end of the video you can see I try my Circuit Interrupter... My light don't work works on the 802a) I ordered two bulbs and to have one as a spare.

I also try the stop switch. This will not work because this was like pull starting. If you read in the TM it states something about when starting if the start switch is not held for 2 or more sec it will not stop with the switch properly. https://youtu.be/oSZLKGkLa50

Here are a couple of more Videos if this lets me post them.

***** Running around 3kw ******

https://youtu.be/bvagox605vw




.
Overload Test

https://youtu.be/BmNzaPGP8S4

 

[Guyfang]

Yea I figured the TVS Diode is good just had to bring it up.

Here is the video. Not sure if this site will let me post links yet will see???

I used my meter on DC Amps so at least this circuit I am jumping is fused and protected through the meter and I can also watch how many amps are being used. You can see I was quick to unhook the jump once it started up. Looks to me it was about 6 amps surge and then went down to 5 amps. Now this is no way the amps used to crank the engine. There are two big 4 gauge cables going to the starter straight fro the battery. K2 just passed a control voltage to tell the starter to do it's thing. Sooo I think I have a bad K2 relay. So I swapped it with the pre heat one and no luck so they are probably both bad. I ordered one so far on (big auction site) $19. I will probably order another one today also.
Testing the relays I could not get continuity through them when I tested them. But if I unhooked the control wire from the started solenoid I would get maybe 16-18 VDC when I checked at K2-A2. I think this K2 is passing something but not allowing the amps...

At the end of the video you can see I try my Circuit Interrupter... My light don't work works on the 802a) I ordered two bulbs and to have one as a spare.

I also try the stop switch. This will not work because this was like pull starting. If you read in the TM it states something about when starting if the start switch is not held for 2 or more sec it will not stop with the switch properly. https://youtu.be/oSZLKGkLa50

Here are a couple of more Videos if this lets me post them.

***** Running around 3kw ******

https://youtu.be/bvagox605vw




.
Overload Test

https://youtu.be/BmNzaPGP8S4

Stop throwing parts and money at your gen set. Troubleshoot. Now what do you think the probability is of two different relays being bad? Try hooking 24 volts to the X1 and X2 of the relay, then mesure the continuity on your output circuit, A1 and A2. Clunking, does not mean it works. Disconnect the wires from the relay, and take two wires from a 24 volt source, and hook em up. Then take your multi meter and check A1 and A2.

 

[kendive]

Stop throwing parts and money at your gen set. Troubleshoot. Now what do you think the probability is of two different relays being bad? Try hooking 24 volts to the X1 and X2 of the relay, then mesure the continuity on your output circuit, A1 and A2. Clunking, does not mean it works. Disconnect the wires from the relay, and take two wires from a 24 volt source, and hook em up. Then take your multi meter and check A1 and A2.

I will give that a try next time I play with the gen Set. Thanks...

 

[kendive]

Ok I finally got back home I was gone for work for a while in West Africa.

So I had a rat problem while I was gone. Wife and I own 21 acres about ten miles north of us I use to mainly shoot on and I left the generator up there on the trailer under the car port wrapped up with a tarp. Well one got in there and was making a home out of it. Lots of acorns and a nest up at the pre heat and start relays. Well I got real lucky and it only chewed up a few wires. I got it all repaired and proceeded back to start issue. Here are some pics of the rat problem.

Anyway back to the start issue I left off with. I bought new K2 and K13 24VDC relays. One is for your Pre heat and the other is for electric start (K13). I jumper-ed K13 with my meter to test my starter and all worked great. That is where I left off before I left to work.

So I replaced K2 and K13 because yes they were both bad. I even tested them in the house with 24VDC and they would not close properly. I will probably never need preheat in Florida but hay might as well have this thing 100%.

I also replaced the burnt out green contractor on light. It's LED now really bright. I like it. I got two of them might put the other one on the 802a.

Here is a couple of video's of running the 831a. Gotta love my load bank... You use what you got!!!

https://youtu.be/mkCVDvO1O5w


https://youtu.be/CyboGfXpeLk

 

[kendive]

While I was out playing with the 831a I got out my Decibel Meter that I use for testing noise levels from suppressed subsonic rounds.

I was probably 20 to 25 feet away and the genset was running at a 3kw load. The lid was not completely closed due to me having the batteries on the outside of the generator. Not sure if that would make much of a difference.

Alot of the noise is made by the handles rattling.

 

[kendive]

Added some Hardware Cloth today to keep the rodents out still need to cover up the holes on the bottom.

 

[kendive]

Have not been on here in a while... But the 831a and 802a are still running great.

A short video of a load test on the 831a. I try to do this once a month. I have a 240 VAC 3kw/6kw shop heater I found used. Great load bank for the 802a.

https://youtu.be/jkBVRIx1fjw

 

[kendive]

Well this thing it still running pretty well. The only thing that is annoying is that when it's humid out here in Florida and I head up to property in the morning the inverter is wet and it wants to shut down do to overload/short circuit. I usually Just open the door to switch from 240/120 and let it run for about 10 min to dry it out and it all good. a PITA but it is what it is. LOL

I was thinking about figuring out how to disconnect this short circuit protection but not sure if they would be wise? I don't think the battel switch by-passes it.

I was burning some diesel the other day running the MEP and the riding around on the tractor bush hogging. Gotta keep the shooting range cleaned up.

The spiders help guide the way. They look mean but they are harmless... I had one ride around on the steering column the entire time.

 

[Guyfang]

Well this thing it still running pretty well. The only thing that is annoying is that when it's humid out here in Florida and I head up to property in the morning the inverter is wet and it wants to shut down do to overload/short circuit. I usually Just open the door to switch from 240/120 and let it run for about 10 min to dry it out and it all good. a PITA but it is what it is. LOL

I was thinking about figuring out how to disconnect this short circuit protection but not sure if they would be wise? I don't think the battel switch by-passes it. (Perhaps a quick look at the TM would answer that question?)

I was burning some diesel the other day running the MEP and the riding around on the tractor bush hogging. Gotta keep the shooting range cleaned up.

The spiders help guide the way. They look mean but they are harmless... I had one ride around on the steering column the entire time.

Open to see comment.

 

[kendive]

Open to see comment.

In an emergency situation, the BATTLE SHORT switch (S7) can be activated to allow generator set
operation under certain fault conditions. Placing the switch (located on the control panel) in the ON
position bypasses all faults except the overload short circuit condition. The BATTLE SHORT
indicator on the malfunction indicator module (A2) illuminates. The generator set continues to
operate under high temperature, low oil pressure, low fuel, overvoltage, or overload short circuit
condition. The appropriate indicator light on A2 illuminates, and the engine cannot be started with
the BATTLE SHORT switch in the ON position.

Relay K6, located in the frequency converter A8, is energized if a short circuit condition exists.
The fault lockout relay (K12) energizes, stopping the engine. The system is reset by placing the
START/RUN/STOP switch in the STOP position.

The frequency converter A8 is not waterproof.
Water in the A8 can cause it to short out, thereby
creating a catastrophic failure.

Voltage Selector Switch access door must
be closed securely or generator set will not
produce power (I do this to head up gen set)

And this is BS

The 3kW Tactical Quiet Generator Set, MEP-831A (60Hz), NSN: 6115-01-285-3012, and MEP-832A
(400Hz), NSN: 6115-01-287-2431, hereafter referred to as generator set, is a portable unit capable of
being mounted on a trailer for transportation. The generator set is designed to provide a quiet source
of AC power under temperature ranges from -25 to +120° F (-32 to +49° C), at any level of relative
humidity, and at altitudes of up to 8000 feet (2440 meters) above sea level.




Yep

 

[Ray70]

On your random overload / short circuit failure, this seems to be a fairly common fault on the 831.
Mine does it occasionally when the humidity is high too.
Kklop has determined that the issue is caused by humidity / moisture getting into the unsealed potentiometers used in the inverter.
His recommendation is to open the inverter, remove the board, bake the board ( wait till after your brownies are done and lower the oven temp ) to dry out the moisture, then seal all the pots with brush on conformal coating and reassemble.
He has detailed pictures of the disassembly process and pictures of which pots need to be sealed, if you're interested in fixing it once and for all.

 

[kendive]

On your random overload / short circuit failure, this seems to be a fairly common fault on the 831.
Mine does it occasionally when the humidity is high too.
Kklop has determined that the issue is caused by humidity / moisture getting into the unsealed potentiometers used in the inverter.
His recommendation is to open the inverter, remove the board, bake the board ( wait till after your brownies are done and lower the oven temp ) to dry out the moisture, then seal all the pots with brush on conformal coating and reassemble.
He has detailed pictures of the disassembly process and pictures of which pots need to be sealed, if you're interested in fixing it once and for all.

Good Information. Thanks a bunch. Better than just looking at am old TM. LOL

I will get this done and update.