Info Prior to Purchase an M1078

[NotThatGuy]

Hello All,

Thank you for a great website for a beginner .mil buyer.

I've red several pages of info about the 1078 series trucks and have a couple of questions;

1) What are the big differences between the M1978 and the 1078A1?

2) How did CAT raise the HP Rating from 225hp to 275hp? Can a simple mod be done to the 225hp engine to get to the CAT 275hp version?

3) If you were to buy a M1078, which model would you buy, (having no Heavy Truck Tools or work area to do repairs)?

4) Are the Hydraulic Winches available to retro fit an winch-less Truck?

Thanking ya'll in advance.

Joe

 

[GeneralDisorder]

1: There are A0, A1, and A1R trucks. Most of the differences are the engine and wiring. There's other small things and beneficial running changes done throughout the production run. A1R trucks are the most desirable and most expensive. Newer = more money, lower mileage = more money. Just like used cars. Some of the early A1's with the 3126b have an engine block serial number that is known to be prone to cracking so those usually get avoided or go cheaper.

2: The 3116 engine is 225 or 290 HP depending on LMTV or MTV installation. Changing from 225 to 290 requires parts - turbocharger, and changes to the fuel system. I don't play with this engines so I can't give a complete list but there's threads and videos on the topic. The 3126b and C7 engines are 275 HP for LMTV and 330 HP for MTV. The 3126b and C7 can be upgraded from 275 to 330 with a flash file. The C7 can be upgraded from 275 to 330 or 370 HP with a flash file.

3: None of them. These trucks are generally ill advised for those unprepared to BE OWNED BY THEM. These trucks are more suited to own you than to be owned by you. Just the nature of them. Many here have found this out the hard way and those of us that make it appear like it's no big deal have experience, resources, etc. Many, such as myself, are former Army mechanics. You either work on it yourself or you have a lot of money and you pay someone else to work on it. But *not* working on it isn't an option so just forget about that idea.

4: They come up for sale when people part out trucks and they are fun toys but take up a tremendous amount of space on both sides of the truck and can't be used without the engine running. They are fun and powerful but electric winches have come a long way and these trucks have battery to spare so they are much more practical in terms of ease of operation (wireless remotes, etc) parts availability, etc.

 

[Awesomeness]

3. Just to add to why you have to work on it yourself: Hourly shop rates at heavy truck mechanic shops are like 2x that of a consumer vehicle mechanic. If you don't work on it yourself, just getting something simple done, like brakes changed, will probably be $2000. And they will be totally unable/unwilling/confused to find parts for it (and many parts are not available off-the-shelf, so you have to find/buy them from surplus, eBay, other military vehicle owners, etc.).

4. To my knowledge, the winch was never available as a standalone upgrade kit, so it's only available removed from another truck. I put one on my truck, and I love it. It can be run out the front or back bumper, for winching in either direction. The hydraulic winch also holds a 280' of 1/2" cable on the drum, and even more if you want to replace it with synthetic rope (the big Warn 18k electric winches off MRAPs hold 100', or something around that).

Yes, it has to be used with the engine running, but it's 100% duty cycle, meaning you can use it continuously, forever, as long as the engine is running. So a task like pulling several vehicles across a mud field, or dragging logs up a hill all day, is totally fine. Electric winches are really only meant for brief, infrequent use, mostly because of heat buildup, but eventually draining batteries too. Electric winches are typically like 5% duty cycle (winch for 45 seconds, let it cool for 14 minutes 15 seconds), though some are higher (manufacturers don't make these numbers easy to find). The big Warn electric winches draw ~200A @ 24V, and the real LMTV Hawker 6TAGM batteries are 120AH (Amp * Hours) when new (far less when old), meaning that with the low duty cycle, and engine running, you could probably keep up with using a big electric winch as much as its duty cycle allowed.

I guess this is just to say that there is nearly no functional comparison between the hydraulic winch and an electric winch, the hydraulic one wins on almost all capabilities, but an argument can be made as to whether the electric winch's capabilities are "good enough". The hydraulic winch is equally "overbuilt" to everything else on the truck, which I enjoy.

 

[GeneralDisorder]

It does totally depend on your use case for the winch. For emergency self-recovery in "not a war zone" where time constraints are looser, etc - electric winches do the job and don't take up a space the size of 150 gallons of fuel (no joke).

If you're running a logging camp or using the truck on a farm - then the hydraulic winch is probably the best option.

 

[Awesomeness]

It does totally depend on your use case for the winch. For emergency self-recovery in "not a war zone" where time constraints are looser, etc - electric winches do the job and don't take up a space the size of 150 gallons of fuel (no joke).

If you're running a logging camp or using the truck on a farm - then the hydraulic winch is probably the best option.

My main point was that they are not similar tiers of devices... not direct competitors.

Besides that I simply like the hydraulic winch's "overbuilt" capabilities matching the rest of the truck's, one reason for me was that if I break something or get stuck offroad, nobody is going to be able to [reasonably] rescue me. Full size pickups would be unlikely to winch, yank, or tow an LMTV out. Having excessive winching capability might be critical, if I need to winch myself a mile back out of a trail. (Something I've had to participate in doing to a K5 Blazer once, and it was an exhausting, all-day event.)

150 gallons is overstated. The main tank is 58 gallons, and it's well known you can barely fit a second tank behind it (with a cutout for the leaf spring hanger), if you don't have a winch. The hydraulic tank is something like 28 gallons, so even if you had one of those filled with fuel too you'd only be at ~90 gallons.

 

[GeneralDisorder]

M1088 and M1089 fuel tanks do not have the winch cutout in the tank and they are about 74 gallons. So the space behind the stock tank can absolutely accommodate that much and probably a bit more with a custom tank. If you replace both tanks with non-winch tanks that gives an increase of about 92 gallons.

The space used by the PTO and hydraulic reservoir is enough to build a tank for about 40-45 gallons - maybe a bit more.

So maybe not quite 150, but definitely 130 to 135. And if you made a single tank to take up the space of the two stock tanks you could easily get to 150 more than stock.

 

[Awesomeness]

M1088 and M1089 fuel tanks do not have the winch cutout in the tank and they are about 74 gallons. So the space behind the stock tank can absolutely accommodate that much and probably a bit more with a custom tank. If you replace both tanks with non-winch tanks that gives an increase of about 92 gallons.

The space used by the PTO and hydraulic reservoir is enough to build a tank for about 40-45 gallons - maybe a bit more.

So maybe not quite 150, but definitely 130 to 135. And if you made a single tank to take up the space of the two stock tanks you could easily get to 150 more than stock.

If the only way you can get to those 130-150 gallon numbers is to make custom tanks and custom modifications to the existing tanks, it's a weak (or deceptive) argument. At that point, there are many other places on the truck you can make custom tanks to store more fuel, with a similar level of custom effort, regardless of winch choice. And that is not the same thing as the winch taking up "the size of 150 gallons of fuel (no joke) ".

 

[GeneralDisorder]

It's just one way to illustrate the size of the winch and associated components. Someone asking about the stock hydraulic winch may not understand how much room it takes up, but they can probably conceptualize what 150 gallons of fuel requires for volume much easier. I'm only using it as a size reference I'm not suggesting any particular use for that space - I'm merely pointing out that it takes up ~150 gallons of fuel worth of space that could be used for anything your imagination could put in such a space.

It's like including a banana or a bottle cap or a nickel in a photograph for a size reference. I'm not making any claims as to how difficult that space might be to use for any specific use. It's just so the OP understands how much volume all that gear requires. You're taking the suggestion too literally - put whatever you want wherever you want on YOUR truck. I'll do the same. But if I wanted to use the same volume as the winch for something else - 150 gallons of fuel would be as good of a use as any and I COULD fit that much with some custom tanks. It's just a phone call away if I want to pay someone to do this or walk out to my garage and my TIG welder and make one myself. Anyone else could make the same phone call.

 

[Awesomeness]

It's just one way to illustrate the size of the winch and associated components. Someone asking about the stock hydraulic winch may not understand how much room it takes up, but they can probably conceptualize what 150 gallons of fuel requires for volume much easier. I'm only using it as a size reference I'm not suggesting any particular use for that space - I'm merely pointing out that it takes up ~150 gallons of fuel worth of space that could be used for anything your imagination could put in such a space.

It's like including a banana or a bottle cap or a nickel in a photograph for a size reference. I'm not making any claims as to how difficult that space might be to use for any specific use. It's just so the OP understands how much volume all that gear requires. You're taking the suggestion too literally - put whatever you want wherever you want on YOUR truck. I'll do the same. But if I wanted to use the same volume as the winch for something else - 150 gallons of fuel would be as good of a use as any and I COULD fit that much with some custom tanks. It's just a phone call away if I want to pay someone to do this or walk out to my garage and my TIG welder and make one myself. Anyone else could make the same phone call.

The winch itself is smaller than the 58 gallon standard tank... maybe 1/2 the size? There is even room behind the installed hydraulic winch to put another, smaller (25-30 gallon?) custom tank. The winch does block the most common/convenient extra fuel tank placement, which is installation of another FMTV 58 gallon tank right behind the first. In terms of space it takes up, it's simply nowhere near 150 gallons.

This picture pretty much speaks for itself.

 

[GeneralDisorder]

To be sure you could put something there - it would have to allow for the winch cable and room to get in there and do cable routing and any maintenance on the unit..... for sure you could devise something. It's not as simple as a big naked spot on the frame though.

 

[NotThatGuy]

The winch itself is smaller than the 58 gallon standard tank... maybe 1/2 the size? There is even room behind the installed hydraulic winch to put another, smaller (25-30 gallon?) custom tank. The winch does block the most common/convenient extra fuel tank placement, which is installation of another FMTV 58 gallon tank right behind the first. In terms of space it takes up, it's simply nowhere near 150 gallons.

This picture pretty much speaks for itself.

View attachment 904834

Thanks for posting a pic of the Hyd Winch.

How effective is the mud flag, just aft of the winch, in protecting the winch from dirt/mud?

 

[Awesomeness]

Thanks for posting a pic of the Hyd Winch.

How effective is the mud flag, just aft of the winch, in protecting the winch from dirt/mud?

In general, it works ok. Under normal on and off road conditions, I've never had to specifically clean mud off the winch, when the rest of the truck wasn't all caked in mud. On occasions where everything had mud slung all over it, that somewhat included the winch (but mud didn't hurt it any).

 

[NotThatGuy]

I guess the Mods have determined I can't use a banana for comparison purposes.

 

[Guyfang]

Yes. That's correct.

 

[TomTime]

I guess the Mods have determined I can't use a banana for comparison purposes.

Oh, you naughty boy.

 

[GeneralDisorder]

My friend with an M1078 w/winch and I went over the scales yesterday with our trucks and the hydraulic winch and all it's gear adds basically 1,000 lbs to his truck - which jives with the door placard information on weight. His 2003 M1078 w/winch was 18,500 lbs, while my 2008 M1079 is 21,000 lbs. A non-winch M1078 would be 17,500 lbs. The additional weight isn't necessarily a bad thing - in some situations my heavier weight on the rear axle gave better traction.

But yeah - the winch and it's components are quite heavy.