Standard Test Equipment port (A0's and?... why/why not utilize this more than we are doing now.

[coachgeo]

good starting point on what STE is and could do

Yet another alternator question

hmmm.... value of STE.. is that "not a value" cause folk just are not capitalizing on it? like can you pull an amp signal of STE? Anyway.. that'ss a whole new topic best for another thread .... especially since I'm not sure what the heck STE even is.... (think its about some archaic...

www.steelsoldiers.com

Lots of folk are adding laptops/tablets anyway ... well the Adventure - Expedition Truck folk are... soooooo why not capitalize on this?? waist of time due to little value in output?? software not around anymore?? just didnt cross folks mind to take advantage of it??

 

[GeneralDisorder]

Actually there's quite a few of us that have the various ICE kits. I have a STE-ICE kit, and several versions of the SWICE kits. What I don't have (by choice) is anything that uses the analog diagnostic port. HMMWV's, CUCV's, and many other (older) military vehicles have the same port as the A0 trucks.

The biggest issue is the software. The STE-ICE kit uses software from about 2005 designed to run on Windows XP and connects via DB9 serial. The SWICE kits (the good ones anyway) are USB and work on modern Windows 10/11 but are crazy rare, some are still in service, many were gobbled up by Ukraine, and the military paid ~$8k to ~$12k for each set. Most units are only issued one or two. For reference, a larger unit with say 25 technicians in it's motorpool would be issued 4 MSD's, and between 2 and 4 SWICE test sets. For an ENTIRE engineering unit.

And the reason the software is such a problem - it is not, and never was, distributed with the STE-ICE or SWICE kits that occasionally leak out of DLA. It's part of the MSD and on the rare occasion that an MSD shows up in the civilian world they don't have hard drives (DLA will ship them back to the unit that turned them in if there's still a hard drive present) so there's no software.

Funny enough - the STE-ICE kits come with CD's that have a lot of TM's on them. Not the newest since the STE-ICE kits are all from the early '00s but it's something. The weird part is the TM's are with the STE-ICE kits but not the software that runs the STE-ICE box. The hardware and software situation with the MSD's is honestly a mess and has been for decades.

 

[Ronmar]

The AO STE is very rudimentary. Basically you can read:
24v, gnd and regulator field duty cycle(how hard it is working) from the alt
A buffered/isolated flywheel tach signal(133 pulses per rev) from the frequency divider.
A 24V battery voltage sample from the PPD
A current sample seen by the instrument shunt,
you can sample or activate the run solenoid on the governor
You can sample or activate connection points on the Aux start solenoid, start solenoid and starter motor, perhaps even crank from the STE test box.

ALl that info is available on that plug, I have re-used some of it for my dual voltmeter...

The TCU is accessed by a standalone interface and computer or a prolink. Same with the CTIS, specific adapter set, interface and software you put inline with the connection to talk to that black box....

Not having seen one specifically, but having seen several similar on different systems over the years, you probably had a box that plugged into that STE cannon plug, that probably had a bunch of go/no-go lights, maybe some switches, that should come on as you activated the dash switches to start the truck. it had test points to measure specific voltages from those dedicated test lines, and current measured by the shunt... depending on what lights light, that would narrow down the area to look for trouble, for say a no crank...

Pretty quick IF you have it handy, but a competent tech would outgrow it pretty quickly, as just about any indication it can provide can be duplicated by other observations and a voltmeter, with a little hands on experience... In the case of the A0, the money spent on this system would have been better used to either incorporate it as a Built In Test Equipment, or BITE box(little black box with indicators and test points), or better spent on better drawings and documentation...

The later versions are a whole different ballgame as they bussed all the modules together onto data busses, accessed at a single point by an interface and a laptop... they also did away with all the standalone sensor wiring and current shunt...

 

[coachgeo]

The AO STE is very rudimentary. Basically you can read:
24v, gnd and regulator field duty cycle(how hard it is working) from the alt
A buffered/isolated flywheel tach signal(133 pulses per rev) from the frequency divider.
A 24V battery voltage sample from the PPD
A current sample seen by the instrument shunt,
you can sample or activate the run solenoid on the governor
You can sample or activate connection points on the Aux start solenoid, start solenoid and starter motor, perhaps even crank from the STE test box.

ALl that info is available on that plug, I have re-used some of it for my dual voltmeter...
...

that and any other things is my thought's one could have always plugged up to their old laptop. I got a few that could run Win 7 or ten... ex-LEO rugged type laptops.

 

[Reworked LMTV]

Not familiar with the ICE boxes, but their diagnostic capabilities sound very basic. I use a Powerprobe and Picoscope for my ICE deep dives with a schematic. I use a Picoscope a fair amount diagnosing the delicate stuff, but am no expert. I use the tools pressure sensors, pulse sensors, magnetic pick ups, vibration sensors, amp clamps, etc. It can detect things like ECM signals ,CANBUS or pretty much anything with a signal. Really amazing what you can see if you follow basic science principles. The Picoscope is fairly small and connects to a laptop.

 

[coachgeo]

Not familiar with the ICE boxes, but their diagnostic capabilities sound very basic. I use a Powerprobe and Picoscope ...

how do you hook your port to your laptop on your truck? How did you determine what in the port on truck was producing a signal from, in order to have it give correct wave report for it?

 

[Ronmar]

A pico scope is a multi-channel analog to digital converter box that connects to a serial port on a laptop. A piece of software accesses the data coming in from the converter. Basically creates an oscilloscope out of a laptop.

the only pulsed signals on the A0 STE connector are the flywheel ring gear RPM sensor, and the PWM field signal from the voltage regulator(duty cycle reflects how hard the field is being driven). Everything else will be a DC voltage. Now a scope can be handy for working with PWM signals as are used by the transmission controller, but a decent quality digital meter will read frequency and duty cycle directly. A scope can be handy looking for mixed signal interference, but I hardly find a call for one anymore.

there really isn’t much to hook a laptop to on a A0 unless you are programming the trans or CTIS…

 

[coachgeo]

...

there really isn’t much to hook a laptop to on a A0 unless you are programming the trans or CTIS…

Laptop not for any programming etc... just as a display of information to eye over at when something burps as your driving, use your laptop screen as tach, your 12v batt status as you mentioned etc.

orrr... if truck farts and makes you jump into... oops.. pullover / stop driving.. then you can scroll back and see tiny bit of what was going on around the fart time.

Maybe an Arduino programmed display @Plasa ?

 

[GeneralDisorder]

Laptop not for any programming etc... just as a display of information to eye over at when something burps as your driving, use your laptop screen as tach, your 12v batt status as you mentioned etc.

orrr... if truck farts and makes you jump into... oops.. pullover / stop driving.. then you can scroll back and see tiny bit of what was going on around the fart time.

Maybe an Arduino programmed display @Plasa ?

It's a nice thought but the STE-ICE kit is not suitable to be used constantly as a monitoring device. The "interconnect box" is nearly the size of a 1990's laptop all by itself (differently shaped but it's got similar bulk), the cables are stupidly long, and the whole mess is....well.... a mess is the best word for it. Cables everywhere.

The SWICE kits are much better (wireless) and they do have the analog port adapter also. Could be used for monitoring but you are monitoring really boring diagnostic stuff that isn't designed to be in the operators face. You only need to look at this stuff very occasionally or when troubleshooting....... and how many gauges do you want guy? You are going to need an engineer in the jump seat to monitor the gauges while you fly it. Our trucks already have more gauges than most modern cars and the gauges that most people ask for at my performance shop are typically not going to help them save something from destruction.

The 3116 "oil line of death" is a good example. These trucks ALL have oil pressure gauges. If that actually helped then it would be called the "oil line of inconvenience" - by the time you get it shut down the damage is already done. No one sees the gauge drop to zero and reacts fast enough to save it. That and the fact that gauges just generate questions from customers about behaviors they don't understand. Basically ALL modern cars got rid of them - same with the temp. Most just have a warning lamp now.

 

[Reworked LMTV]

A pico scope is a multi-channel analog to digital converter box that connects to a serial port on a laptop. A piece of software accesses the data coming in from the converter. Basically creates an oscilloscope out of a laptop.

the only pulsed signals on the A0 STE connector are the flywheel ring gear RPM sensor, and the PWM field signal from the voltage regulator(duty cycle reflects how hard the field is being driven). Everything else will be a DC voltage. Now a scope can be handy for working with PWM signals as are used by the transmission controller, but a decent quality digital meter will read frequency and duty cycle directly. A scope can be handy looking for mixed signal interference, but I hardly find a call for one anymore.

there really isn’t much to hook a laptop to on a A0 unless you are programming the trans or CTIS…

A pico scope is a multi-channel analog to digital converter box that connects to a serial port on a laptop. A piece of software accesses the data coming in from the converter. Basically creates an oscilloscope out of a laptop.

the only pulsed signals on the A0 STE connector are the flywheel ring gear RPM sensor, and the PWM field signal from the voltage regulator(duty cycle reflects how hard the field is being driven). Everything else will be a DC voltage. Now a scope can be handy for working with PWM signals as are used by the transmission controller, but a decent quality digital meter will read frequency and duty cycle directly. A scope can be handy looking for mixed signal interference, but I hardly find a call for one anymore.

there really isn’t much to hook a laptop to on a A0 unless you are programming the trans or CTIS…

I would agree that an AO at first glance, would not provide much electrical data. This is where the scope World has really grown. It is a long way from the original Sun and Snap-on automotive scopes. Lets face it, most of us don't need a scope can hear that something is off. We can diagnose the car in front of us at McDonalds in the drive through. We can use a multimeter to find many common faults.

If I start the A0 and place a pulse sensor in the exhaust, while picking up the flywheel pulses as a reference, I can begin to map out the issue. I would then put overlay a template on 360-720 degrees and start to narrow things down. This saves time.

An intermittent controller issue on an Alison with a hairline crack in the PC board could be readily picked up, but obviously a Picoscope cannot program anything. I am hearing the PCB's are the source of many Allison issues.

Are scopes the best thing since sliced bread? No. The problem with scopes is the steep learning curve, but in the hands of a mad scientist, they can be absolutely amazing.

 

[GeneralDisorder]

A scope can be a very useful thing. And there are decent options that are quite a bit cheaper than the Picoscope. The real benefit to buying their product is their software - part of which is geared specifically toward automotive diagnostics. But (big but) my fully decked out 4-channel Picoscope with pressure transducer kit, master probe kit, etc is about $5,000 and would not really be economically viable for someone that doesn't own a shop. I've used my Picoscope I think on ONE problem on my truck (and had ALL FOUR channels hooked up to boot). For sure it helped me narrow down the problem by showing me a bunch of things that were not the problem but ultimately it wasn't the silver bullet that time around.

The vast majority of electrical problems people are going to encounter on an LMTV can be diagnosed with some skill, a DMM, and a couple of different "test lights" of different amperage draw ratings.

Much like a Picoscope can be amazing in the hands of a master - so can a halogen headlight bulb and socket with flying leads. The "scope on a rope" as those of us diagnosticians refer to them.

Jarhead Diagnostics Load Test Light — Jarhead Diagnostics

Perfect for adding a load to any 12v circuit!

www.jarheaddiag.com

 

[coachgeo]

It's a nice thought but the STE-ICE kit is not suitable to be used constantly as a monitoring device. The "interconnect box" is nearly the size of a 1990's laptop all by itself (differently shaped but it's got similar bulk), the cables are stupidly long, and the whole mess is....well.... a mess is the best word for it. Cables everywhere.

The SWICE kits are much better (wireless) and they do have the analog port adapter also. Could be used for monitoring but you are monitoring really boring diagnostic stuff that isn't designed to be in the operators face. You only need to look at this stuff very occasionally or when troubleshooting....... and how many gauges do you want guy? You are going to need an engineer in the jump seat to monitor the gauges while you fly it. Our trucks already have more gauges than most modern cars and the gauges that most people ask for at my performance shop are typically not going to help them save something from destruction.

The 3116 "oil line of death" is a good example. These trucks ALL have oil pressure gauges. If that actually helped then it would be called the "oil line of inconvenience" - by the time you get it shut down the damage is already done. No one sees the gauge drop to zero and reacts fast enough to save it. That and the fact that gauges just generate questions from customers about behaviors they don't understand. Basically ALL modern cars got rid of them - same with the temp. Most just have a warning lamp now.

good input... answered part of my question of ..... "was one or all of its data of any value outside of trouble shooting?."

Seems still though that maybe not via ICE but via pulling thru other means one or two things of data it puts out can be utilized. For example tach and more voltage measuring options like @Ronmar did. Might be a project for someone with more electronics knowledge than I to make/sell a plug-n-play tach/volt meter harness as well as any other interesting thing you might wont on your dash that gets sent to that port Harenss just stays pluged into that test port. Folk might pay for that instead of partially removing the heater to access the tach harness for example. If $omeone does that give me some credit for the idea... Am trying to retire on 1500 bucks a month SS lol.

 

[Reworked LMTV]

A scope can be a very useful thing. And there are decent options that are quite a bit cheaper than the Picoscope. The real benefit to buying their product is their software - part of which is geared specifically toward automotive diagnostics. But (big but) my fully decked out 4-channel Picoscope with pressure transducer kit, master probe kit, etc is about $5,000 and would not really be economically viable for someone that doesn't own a shop. I've used my Picoscope I think on ONE problem on my truck (and had ALL FOUR channels hooked up to boot). For sure it helped me narrow down the problem by showing me a bunch of things that were not the problem but ultimately it wasn't the silver bullet that time around.

The vast majority of electrical problems people are going to encounter on an LMTV can be diagnosed with some skill, a DMM, and a couple of different "test lights" of different amperage draw ratings.

Much like a Picoscope can be amazing in the hands of a master - so can a halogen headlight bulb and socket with flying leads. The "scope on a rope" as those of us diagnosticians refer to them.

Jarhead Diagnostics Load Test Light — Jarhead Diagnostics

Perfect for adding a load to any 12v circuit!

www.jarheaddiag.com

For the basic 12 and 24 volt stuff on my truck, I use the PowerProbe 3. Not expensive. A used Picoscope pretty affordable. Check Ebay. Accessories for Picoscope are WAY cheaper from Hantek. Hantek has a pretty good scope too.
Practical for FMTV owners? LOL Is a 2.5 or 5 ton military truck practical to begin with ?

 

[GeneralDisorder]

For the basic 12 and 24 volt stuff on my truck, I use the PowerProbe 3. Not expensive. A used Picoscope pretty affordable. Check Ebay. Accessories for Picoscope are WAY cheaper from Hantek. Hantek has a pretty good scope too.
Practical for FMTV owners? LOL Is a 2.5 or 5 ton military truck practical to begin with ?

That's true. It depends on your use case. Is it practical to drive my M1079 as a daily? No but it doesn't stop me.

I have mixed feelings on Power Probe as a brand. I have one (and their short finder, and a couple other items) - virtually never use it. I find their flagship devices to be gimmicky with the whole rocker switch to "inject" voltage and ground. It's rather silly when I can just do that with inexpensive retractable test leads to the battery. It's a cheap gimmicky DMM with a tiny display and small feature set.

The LOADPro made by Dan Sullivan along with a quality DMM (Fluke, Agilent/Keysight (HP)) is a much better investment IMHO.

LOADpro Dynamic Test Lead

LoadPro. Electronic Specialties 180 LOADpro Dynamic Test Leads, tesLOAD by Dan Sullivan

www.aeswave.com

 

[Reworked LMTV]

That's true. It depends on your use case. Is it practical to drive my M1079 as a daily? No but it doesn't stop me.

I have mixed feelings on Power Probe as a brand. I have one (and their short finder, and a couple other items) - virtually never use it. I find their flagship devices to be gimmicky with the whole rocker switch to "inject" voltage and ground. It's rather silly when I can just do that with inexpensive retractable test leads to the battery. It's a cheap gimmicky DMM with a tiny display and small feature set.

The LOADPro made by Dan Sullivan along with a quality DMM (Fluke, Agilent/Keysight (HP)) is a much better investment IMHO.

LOADpro Dynamic Test Lead

LoadPro. Electronic Specialties 180 LOADpro Dynamic Test Leads, tesLOAD by Dan Sullivan

www.aeswave.com

I tried one of those yellow multi-meters once. I couldn't get it to work right. Maybe it was just a Fluke.

 

[Reworked LMTV]

Just to be clear, a Powerprobe should never be used on the outputs on an ECM / ECU/ electronic brain like on a 3126. The Picoscope is pretty much safe. Then again, come to think of it, you don't have to worry about the 3126, since they are best used on the bottom of the ocean keeping ships from drifting

T minus 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1...... Here comes the 3126 Police !

 

[GeneralDisorder]

Just to be clear, a Powerprobe should never be used on the outputs on an ECM / ECU/ electronic brain like on a 3126. The Picoscope is pretty much safe. Then again, come to think of it, you don't have to worry about the 3126, since they are best used on the bottom of the ocean keeping ships from drifting

T minus 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1...... Here comes the 3126 Police !

I'm in the same camp as several other seasoned FMTV veterans as well as yourself - I rank the FMTV engines with the 3126b at the bottom of the list. C7 is most desirable, 3116 is reliable but showing its age, lower performance, and more maintenance intensive, and then 3126b as the least desirable. Mostly due to two factors - lowest production volume, and the early adoption tax on both the HEUI system and the ECM. 3116 is a well known quantity and was produced for 10 years. The 3126b was made for only about 7 years and was only in the FMTV for 4 years. The C7 was introduced in 2004 and is still being produced (and still being put into FMTV's by Oshkosh) giving it the longest production of 20 years at this point. ECM's are 1/2 to 1/4 the price and about 100x more plentiful in the used market. And the whole HEUI system was further developed, refined, and more reliable. Plus parts are more obtainable (new and especially used) and support will exist far into the future with them still actively in service and even still being procured in the A1P2 - demand for the HIMARS went crazy after their success in theater, etc.

Also both of my local friends with 3126's have had lubrication related issues necessitating replacement of thousands of $$$ in parts from CAT. Both with fewer miles than my C7.

It would be interesting to see some MTBF figures for the three engines.

 

[hike]

Interesting (posts 16 & 17).

I am wondering about replacing the oil pump in our 3126b. Only because of what I read here, not from observation. And the HEUI oil filtering issue is something I hear mentioned at times.

If I didn't spend so much time here I would expect another 300,000 miles out of our CAT 3126B after replacing all the 20 year old rotted rubber and electrical.

I think it was @fuzzytoaster who wrote here the 3126b was the best long haul and overland engine? I could have purchased a C7 from him. Perhaps starting another thread: NOT for arguing, but sharing plusses and minuses? I for one would take the improvements to our A1 and sell the cab and chassis for an A1+ if it actually made sense. For example: A1+ little or no TM's in the wild.

I don't mind tinkering, nor hiring others when they know more, though reliability when traveling with my better half is priceless.

Start another thread gentlemen. You all have wonderful insights to share with us newbies—

 

[Reworked LMTV]

AdeptApe has a youtube channel where he talks about the pros and cons of each CAT engine. Maybe a hyper maintenance program would allow it to run longer. He would be the guy to ask.

FYI New FMTV's made by BAE had a Cummins.

 

[Reworked LMTV]

I'm in the same camp as several other seasoned FMTV veterans as well as yourself - I rank the FMTV engines with the 3126b at the bottom of the list. C7 is most desirable, 3116 is reliable but showing its age, lower performance, and more maintenance intensive, and then 3126b as the least desirable. Mostly due to two factors - lowest production volume, and the early adoption tax on both the HEUI system and the ECM. 3116 is a well known quantity and was produced for 10 years. The 3126b was made for only about 7 years and was only in the FMTV for 4 years. The C7 was introduced in 2004 and is still being produced (and still being put into FMTV's by Oshkosh) giving it the longest production of 20 years at this point. ECM's are 1/2 to 1/4 the price and about 100x more plentiful in the used market. And the whole HEUI system was further developed, refined, and more reliable. Plus parts are more obtainable (new and especially used) and support will exist far into the future with them still actively in service and even still being procured in the A1P2 - demand for the HIMARS went crazy after their success in theater, etc.

Also both of my local friends with 3126's have had lubrication related issues necessitating replacement of thousands of $$$ in parts from CAT. Both with fewer miles than my C7.

It would be interesting to see some MTBF figures for the three engines.

Cat C7 Life Expectancy

Engines are measured by a two-category system called the B10 and the B50. The first category indicates how many engines will fail at a certain mileage mark. The 10 stands for 10% of the engines will fail prior to reaching the B50 mile mark.

The 50 in the B50 stands for 50% and it has been estimated that this engine will have a 50% failure rate at the 450,000 to 500,000-mile mark. What that means is that 50% of the owners who bought an RV or truck with this motor will need an overhaul at that mile mark.

The good news is that the other 50% should see far more miles than some of their friends got. This failure rate when compared to other diesel engines is not bad.

The Cummins 5.9 liter has a B50 rating of 350,000 and the Cat 3116 and 3126 were rated at 200,000 miles. Unfortunately, the C7 does not live as long as the Detroit Diesel 60 series motor which has a B50 rating of 1,000,000 miles.