Should I Jump in or Walk away....

[RangerDave]

OK OK OK... I have tried searching and searching and can't exactly find out what I need to know... although I think the ultimate answer will be to just buy a 5 Ton!!! and walk away...

Here' the dilemma:
- I need to re-bolt the small shackle that binds the leaf springs together (the 1/4 inch bolt rusted away)
- I want to carry heavy loads safer
- So I am looking at adding a couple of spring leaves to the bottom to bear the weight
- Finding a way to enhance/modify/buy better brakes
- I figure since I had everything apart .... Why Not?????

My M36A2 weighs in at 20,000lbs empty and I've had it on scales loaded to 40,000lbs. I have read countless threads about the overloading capabilities and possible catastrophic events of doing so....

I have seen a bunch of disk brakes mounted on the top of the rear diffs, but I'm not sure the off road mods are reliable enough for commercial use... and I'm sure they are pricey too. What other options for brake enhancement do I have?

I am just asking because I'm sure there are a few of you who have done this type of thing repeatedly... Who like jumping in...

PS: If I replace the axles with better ones then I would have the two axles I need to build the small skidder I want......

 

[gimpyrobb]

The pinion brakes in my opinion, should be for off road use ONLY. keep in mind that they are spining 6.71 times faster than the axles and that will build tremendous heat. Probably kill the pinion seals in short order. I think you looking into a 5ton would net you a reliable and much safer truck for what you do. This is just my two cents, lets see what the others think.

 

[jblack6527]

I am in agreement with gimpy

 

[papabear]

5ton is the correct answer

 

[rivired]

i know that the pinion brake rotors are spinning faster but i always wonderd about how if the braking force is actually multiplied by sed gearing.... to balance out the equation..
HOWEVER..

pinion brakes should not be used on road do the the fact that an open differential and pinion brake is going to lock up the tire with the least traction and put no braking force at all to the other wheel.. just as the fact that when trying to get traction..the open diff puts power to the wheel with less traction.

i could imagine that would be pretty scary cuz itd probly pull REAL hard witch ever way.

 

[area52]

One way to upgrade the brakes is to add a second master cylinder like the "newer" M35A2's in the Air Force had. Basically gives you a split brake system so if one sides goes, you have half a system left to brake with.

 

[scooter01922]

Thats one really neat duece you have there but if you are looking for more capacity i vote 5 ton too. Not that i really have any experience or anything, just my opinion.

 

[RangerDave]

Yup, just as I suspected... I should walk away from the deuce and jump into a 5 Ton!!!

I hear a lot of talk about the merits of going to super singles...... but I kind of like having 10 wheels under me than 6. The super singles seem to have a huge capacity, but this just shows my inexperience and conservative nature not to look too flashy... even though it would look really cool!

 

[Larch]

skidder

I'd like to hear the plans for the skidder!

 

[yeager1]

I think you have two options: Buy a 5 ton, or put 5 ton axles and suspension under your truck.
The deuce and 5 ton frame are very similar in size and strength (deuce is 3"x8"x5/16"- 5 ton is 3"x9"x5/16), the biggest difference in weight capacity is the suspension/brakes/axles. If you get the 5 ton axles with the springs and hangers, including the whole rear suspension, it will fit your frame, (they are both 34") you just need to drill some holes, flip the front center section 180 and do some steering/driveshaft mods. This will give you much better brakes and weight capacity. I am thinking of doing it myself just for the brakes and ease of running larger tires. The rear should be easy; the front will take a little more thinking due to the steering. I found a guy that will trade my deuce hardware for 5 ton stuff straight across. I want to do it because the deuce is way lighter overall (doesn't sink so bad) but could use bigger brakes. You would end up with one super stout deuce.
The 5 ton way is a better option if cash is avaliable and weights not a problem, but you will still need to move all your loader gear over, so the amount of labor is probably the same either way.
The 5 ton axles has been covered before, but no one to my knowledge has done it in a 6x6 (baby HEMTT has 5 tons but is 4x4).

 

[russ81]

I believe I read somewhere that pinion breaks were illegal for on highway use. Something about having a breaking system at each wheel hub as compared to the chances of axle breakage, drive line breakage, yada yada yada. I have seriously considered one for an "emergency" break, but then again you have the samething already but instead mounted to your transfer case.

Just my

 

[RangerDave]

I was thinking about trading out the running gear for 5 ton.... but when I search all I find is stuff about bobbing deuces with 5 ton axles and pinion brakes....

Trading everything out "appears" to be strait forward, but then there is the discussion about how the engine will respond to the 5 ton set up and if the drive shafts will have to be modified...

Another intriguing thread was adding a third axle to the rear and making it a tri-axle... I saw the threads on that (pictures mostly). Most of the loggers around here prefer the tri-axle log truck because it can handle a lot of weight and self load while negotiating narrow logging roads....

The thought that I had was that If I used the dual master cylinder set up for the front wheels and the first axle and the second mc for the rear 2 duals, I guess i would have more braking with the 3rd dual when under weight and the safety of having 2 braking systems (I am thinking that a failure on a leftside / right side system would handle poorly.... I am just imagining the right side line blowing and all of the braking power on the left side pulling that big ol' front wheel into traffic with that steering wheel just a spinning...

But wait!!! If I attached a short drive shaft to that 3rd dual, I would have greater traction in some of the areas customers want me to go. And if I could rig it like and to the front axle engage and disengage air mechanism, I could switch back and fourth from 2 axles pushing to all 4 axles pushing....

Just a pipe dream to keep me going last night while I'm still friguring out how much in taxes I'll owe the Uncle...

 

[StrykerPez]

As far as better brakes go, look at the 4x4 magazines and websites. Since the Rockwells are really popular for swaps into 4x4 pickups, there are a few companies out there that make disc brake conversions for the Rockwells.

 

[tm america]

i am thinking about doing the same thing to my truck im gonna run a split master cyl and pinion brake on the rear diff that i can run off an adjustable proportioning valve . the idea of pinion brakes is they are gear reducted and dont build much heat and give better stopping power the reason they arent for street use is cux if you broke an axle =no brakes they run the e brake off the driveshaft and it works

 

[yeager1]

As far as better brakes go, look at the 4x4 magazines and websites. Since the Rockwells are really popular for swaps into 4x4 pickups, there are a few companies out there that make disc brake conversions for the Rockwells.

I've seen lots of these on websites and out on the trails. But they were all really designed to stop a 4x4 buggy of maybe 4-5k on a trail, not 20+k on the street. 5 ton brakes are made for 40+k and would be cheaper then converting 3 axles to discs. Pinion brakes are horrible and dangerous for the street! I've meat off-roaders who have them and say the same. This is due to the differencial action of the spider gears allowing one side of the axle to spin at a different speed then the other. Brakes need to apply evenly or you will end up in a ditch.

Probably best to get bigger axles or a bigger truck.

 

[tm america]

i agree i wouldnt run just pinion brakes but as an add on they would help enough to get the brakes you want since when you need better brakes is ussually when you are really loaded you have alot ot ground pressure and the chance of one side breaking free is very small and just adding it to what you already have you wouldnt have to worry about that probalem anyway

 

[Elwenil]

i am thinking about doing the same thing to my truck im gonna run a split master cyl and pinion brake on the rear diff that i can run off an adjustable proportioning valve . the idea of pinion brakes is they are gear reducted and dont build much heat and give better stopping power the reason they arent for street use is cux if you broke an axle =no brakes they run the e brake off the driveshaft and it works

WRONG! Pinion brakes build a lot more heat than hub brakes. Think of how many revolutions a tire is doing at 55 MPH, then multiply that by 6.71. It's like trying to stop 20k lbs at well over 200 MPH with only one brake per axle. Not only is it stupid, it would be horribly dangerous.

Also, the disk brake kits out for the wheeling crowd will not stand up to the weight of a fullsize MV. They are made for lightweight buggies and trucks that don't weigh more than 8k lbs and are based off of 1 ton or 1.5 ton disc brake systems. The drums are much more effective. Semis still run drum brakes for a reason.

 

[tm america]

yes the pinion will be turning at 6.2 time the speed of the wheel but the effort to stop it will be 6.72 times less divided by 2 since the wheel brake will be doing over half of the stopping disk brakes disapate heat faster than drum brakes to nascar" stop from over 200 thaousand of times with more stress and speed than the pinion brake would ever see on a deuce especially when used as a suplement to the brakes that are there already

 

[Elwenil]

Trust me, I have known many people running pinion brakes and almost all of them have swapped to discs on the hubs. Everyone reports scary braking if used for any length of time. They overheat, glaze over and then it's glass on glass and you don't stop. Even the largest rotor you can fit on the pinion is not going to generate as much braking power as the stock Deuce drums on the hubs. Plus the pinion brakes generate enough heat to incinerate the pinion seals. Search a bit over on Pirate and I think you will quickly see that pinion brakes simply do not work in the real world on anything over 4k lbs.

 

[tm america]

i am not saying to run just pinion brakes nor was that the discusion it was adding them with the drum brakes in the wheels question is would the stock drum brakes plus pinion brakes give you better stopping and the answer is yes all day would it give you better brakes than 5 tons probably not but it would be a good investment for the money and effort to put one on the rear axle i'm gonna put a pinion brake on the back of my truck and i'll let everyone know how much it helped