Modern inner hub seal??

[1stDeuce]

Ok, I keep reading all the hub seal discussions and trouble, and it's getting close to time to flip my hubs for singles, so I'm getting ready to re-seal it all too. I had one seal start dumping last year, and found that there was no outer seal on that hub, so I just filled the diff and live with it knowing I'd hav eto flip them anyway. (low mileage) I hear some say that it gets done that way in some units, but the inner seal is old school and not designed to keep in 90wt, just grease, so they eventually leak...

My quiestion is this: Anybody know the P/N for a "modern" two lip seal that I can install as the inner seal that will hold in 90wt, so I don't need the troublesome outer seal?? I'm not interested in discussions of grease vs. 90wt, I'm confident the bearings will be really happy in a bath of 90wt and my truck runs empty anyway.

If not, can anybody get dimensions for me and I'll see what I can come up with?? My truck is 300 miles away or I'd go measure myself.

Gringeltaube, you have to have this info somewhere in your M35 encyclopedia...

Thanks!
C

 

[IHASFIP]

 

[Stretch44875]

On a modern seal, the seal is installed on the hub, and rides against the spindle.There is no place for a seal to ride on on the spindles. Also the hub only has 1/8 inch depth that a seal could be installed in. The inner seal is good for grease, but can leak oil out.

 

[1stDeuce]

Oh. So the deuce seal presses on the spindle and slips against the hub instead of pressing into the hub and slipping on the spindle... That complicates things some, and explains why there isn't better info on this.

Still, it looks like there is a machined area on the spindle... Wonder if it's possible to machine the hub slightly to make more depth for pressing in a seal? I wish my truck was here so I could just go look.

If I figure anything out, I'll forward it on to the list... Else I'll be getting new inner and outer seals.

C

 

[Stretch44875]

Yep. don't have a pic, search axle seal, might be one on here.

 

[Jake0147]

In addition to "axle seal", try some variations on brakes and hub flipping. Good pictures of the seals and spindles there too.

 

[gringeltaube]

.................................................................
Still, it looks like there is a machined area on the spindle... Wonder if it's possible to machine the hub slightly to make more depth for pressing in a seal? I wish my truck was here so I could just go look.

If I figure anything out, I'll forward it on to the list... Else I'll be getting new inner and outer seals.

C

Everything is possible... even re-inventing the (rear) wheel (seal)...
Q.#1 is if this ends up being practical for easy maintenance or, if we rather have to replace the "modern" seal every time we wanted to pull off the hub/drum assy. for brake service, i.e....?
Due to its snug fit normally the bearing cone will stay on the spindle when removing the hub. Not so if we had a conventional seal press-fitted to the hub and riding on the spindle with a smaller diam. than the bearing itself. In that case the bearing had to easily come off pulled by the seal, otherwise the latter would be destroyed. Same case as the classic Jeep - and all common 4x4 font axle hubs...

Also, our old fashion seals actually are pretty good in serving its original purpose: keeping grease IN and dirt and water OUT! And the greater the pressure from outside (like when submerged) the better it seals! The only way to achieve this effectively with a modern seal is using two of them: the outer one flipped outwards. But not always there is enough room for this.

The attached drawings in real proportion show one possible solution to fit a commonly available double lip seal without substantial mods to the hub or spindle. In any case it will take a custom (shouldered) sleeve to be pressed on the spindle. Best if its surface was hardened, of course.

It is clear that this all only applies to the rear axle hubs.

G.

 

[Recovry4x4]

Gerhard, you never fail to amaze me.

 

[gringeltaube]

......................you never fail to amaze me.

Coming from you Kenny, l'll take this as a nice compliment.

Thank you!!!

G.

 

[Stretch44875]

(to Kenny's comment)

 

[IHASFIP]

Wow. That guy knows his stuff eh? I guess the original design has been working for 40+ years, no reason to change it now.

D

 

[clinto]

Gerhard, you never fail to amaze me.

You new guys should pay attention to Gringeltaube's posts. He is simply one of the smartest M44 series guys out there and he is willing to take the time to answer the most complex of questions in simple and easy to understand formats, along with diagrams most of the time. I appreciate all the help I have received from him. We are very lucky to have someone like him as a regular poster.

 

[1stDeuce]

Thanks Gerhard! Now I see why nobody is doing this... The drum ID is smaller than the hub... (I can get the hub onto a lathe pretty easily, but things a big as the drums are a bit more challenging...)

Guess I'll order up some sets of old school seals and a nice tub of wheel bearing grease and do it the proven way...

BTW, G, I don't know where you find the time to get all the info you have, but I sure appreciated it, as do a lot of others on this forum!!! If I might ask, what exactly do you or did you do that you are so intimately aware of this trucks, and also able to so quickly find or produce detailed CAD drawings?? You thinking about resuming production on the M35??
C

 

[gringeltaube]

Now I see why nobody is doing this... The drum ID is smaller than the hub... (I can get the hub onto a lathe pretty easily, but things a big as the drums are a bit more challenging...)

[FONT=&quot]Well, you could always disassemble the drum's center plate, it's just 13" in diam. while the hub is 11" and much heavier. Or slightly turn down a std. seal (only 0.2mm to be removed!) but...... I don't think that's the real problem here...

[/FONT]

If I might ask, what exactly do you or did you do that you are so intimately aware of this trucks, and also able to so quickly find or produce detailed CAD drawings?? You thinking about resuming production on the M35??

Hey, I love this hobby as much as you all do, especially the challenge of bringing a fifty year old abandoned gasser Deuce back to life (in a country where you can’t buy or import M35A2s), with some mods & upgrades to be able to run better than ever, maybe for another 50 years...!? And trying to be helpful to other Members of this Super Special Forum has helped me a lot to refresh old - and learn new stuff (and store it somewhere in my PC, not my limited brain…!)

When you repeatedly find the same "weak link" or points of excessive wear on the very same component it's just natural to think about how to improve the original design. That usually starts with going "back to the drawing board" which nowadays is the screen of the laptop. And it sure isn't a big deal to take a few basic measurements of parts laying around and start playing with lines (MS-PAINT) to find out what can be modified and if a better suited bearing, bushing, seal, etc. fits in place, for the same purpose…., or should be left as is, if after all there are no real advantages, IMHO.
BTW, if anyone wants any original drawing e-mailed (bmp. or JPEG. version), just say so.

We are very lucky to have....................

......... a Forum like this one, to be able to communicate and share info and pics as many as we wanted.

MANY THANKS TO ALL that make it possible!


(And thanks Clint and others for your kind words!)


Gerhard

 

[Recovry4x4]

Gerhard, you let the cat out of the bag. I'd bet most of these folk thought you were working some CAD software. I know I was dumbfounded when Mike told me that you do all these with MS Paint. I had no idea that paint could be made to do this.

 

[Hainebd]

Nice. Are you sure a speedy sleeve is not available?

 

[USMCGunny]

Question, for all the drivers of these big beautiful machines. I know the inner hub seal is just a dust seal, but has anyone found a better idea to keep water out of the bearings for deep water crossings. I was thinking there is Marine grade wheel bearing grease. A heavy truck Mechanic friend said he uses a product called Paraplex gold by Castrol, and that stuff does no wash off. Has anyone tried a better type of seal or other country boy idea. I just hate to tear them down every time I traverse water over the hubs. Any Ideas.

 

[gringeltaube]

.....I know the inner hub seal is just a dust seal....

It actually does better than that - per design at least. The greater the pressure from the outer environment, the better it seals.

 

[davidb56]

Question, for all the drivers of these big beautiful machines. I know the inner hub seal is just a dust seal, but has anyone found a better idea to keep water out of the bearings for deep water crossings. I was thinking there is Marine grade wheel bearing grease. A heavy truck Mechanic friend said he uses a product called Paraplex gold by Castrol, and that stuff does no wash off. Has anyone tried a better type of seal or other country boy idea. I just hate to tear them down every time I traverse water over the hubs. Any Ideas.

Staylube blue marine grease is designed for wet/submerged and salt applications. research using it. 12$ a cartridge.