When Do We Need Power Steering?

[glj]

Ladies,

I apologize for my gray matter atrophy, by way of acknowledging that this topic has likely been well covered already and I simply missed it. I am an experienced mechanic only so far as making old Studebaker coups go very, very fast. Steelwise, I only have an M35A2, and I've had it for about 3 weeks, now. Drove it from Spokane, through the heavy snow on the pass between Pendleton and LaGrand, OR, and on to Ogden, UT, the whole distance with standard, manual steering. At 63 I was feeling the pain, so I had Boyce in Ogden install the air assist unit. The final 300 of the total 1100 mile trip was more pleasurable.

The first thing I did was to super six this thing. Prior to putting the Goodyear 46 in tall (15+ in wide) military singles on this beast (Rockwell wheels from C @ C Equipment) I took the truck with the duallys and standard military issue tires it came with up my special rockclimb that most ATV's have difficulty with; very steep and many very large rocks. It was a charm. I would like to emphasize that I lost no fingers and the truck maneuvered over, around and against the rocks while steering was entirely managable.

BUT, with the big singles it behaved as though I had manual steering again. The air assist appeared to be of no value. I started the experiment by taking the same rout, which actually begins with a very mild and sometimes graded dirt road. At any speed even the smallest rocks created great havoc with steering. It was either "the shock of my life" or I was using the newly found muscle tone I acquired in driving this very healthy M truck 1100miles.

I conclude that I would do much better with hydraulic assist. I'm guessing that this will do much to dampen those rock shocks and otherwise poor handling in rocky territory.

Am I correct in my above assessment? I retire in two years but for thr time I am still very busy as a physcian. Therefore, I would have the conversion done in St. George, where I have a 4 x 4 mechanic that I have the greatest confidence in. If you all think that going hydraulic assist will mitigate, if not cure the above problem is there a consensus out there regarding what parts I need, and where I can get them?

Sincerely,

Gary Jones
435-574-3201

 

[OPCOM]

The air assist has a certain amount of air pressure (120psi?) put against a certain size of piston. Same as a hydro. The amount of assist is different, as is the way it is aplied 9unless you have a ram or something) If I am not mistaken the air-o-matic is most useful for cranking the wheel when gloing very slow or parking etc. I cannot say hydro would be any better. The big tires are certainly going to make any system work harder.

I run only 11.00x20's, and have never, ever lacked power for steering with the air setup.

I hope others with the large tires will chime in about their experience.

 

[ccequipment]

Gary, is the air pressure all the way up on your steering, I normally do away with the regulator that should be located inside the left front frame rail where the air supply comes through the frame. If its there, unscrew the black cap and turn the inner knob in, (Clockwise) it will give your system more air. But like OPCOM said, the bigger tires will give you more feed back to the steering wheel no matter what kind of system you have. Its just like putting bigger tires on a 5 ton with power steering, The same thing will happen, just not as bad. Keep your thumbs out of the wheel and your hand lose when in a bad spot and let it do its thing. All in all I hope you like you new tires and wheels, I bet they look good.

 

[GoHot229]

must be a doctor, I couldn't read a thing he wrote,.............................................lol....serriously, I have a stock M35 and do just fine here in the North Carolina woods with manual steering. I had one thumb incident......just one. At the low speeds I drive (you couldn't go faster if you wanted to) ie. low/first occasionally, but typically low/second to low/third, I find the steering ok, though I'm somewhat tougher than most in my upper body, (due to being a life-long block mason) still it's not too tough, though it does take a tight grip often-times in the rough stuff, over logs and through ruts/creeks. Actual steering.....well other than the patrillion turns from lock to lock, all goes fairly well. Mabe power steering is the hot deal for some, a got'a have, but I'd rather have other accessories before addressing the steering.
....oh by the way Doc.... I'v got this pain right.....and........over........and............................**
Also, we'v got an ongoing discution currently with a member who is working with a hydro-assist unit, and it sounds about ready to come on the market. Certainly that would negate all the vagueness you associate in the air assist units, instead a feeling of continuous power in the wheel in either dirrection or in a neutral position, in other words, a continual feeling, akin to what a car feels like. Were following this with baited breath...
There is a tecnique where you turn, and with cupped hands rather than being 'in' the spokes, you let it un-spin back to straight, your hands somewhat acting like disk brakes, cupped fingers, not letting the spokes catch any fingers. It's spoken of in some TM or other.
All in all I consider it a luxury, along with a heater.

 

[saddamsnightmare]

November 28th, 2009.

Dear GLJ:

My deuce "Saddam's Nightmare" in the icon next, has recently been fitted with the Air-O-Matic steering, and she does very well in handling rough terrain, potholes and such, much better then she ever did with manual steering. However, she's still carrying the stock 9:00x20 NDT's (not by choice-I'm unemployed currently), but I do believe that the excessively large tires you have on your truck will overload the Air-O-Matic's capacity, as the cylinder size is fixed, hence the power output is also fixed. I know many members are waiting for the hydraulic system to come on line, and if properly designed it may work well.
I'm just curious if anyone has thought through the fact that this system was limited by the power in the drivers arms, so any front end inputs that exceeded that took themselves out by wheel movement. What will the possibility with a hydraulic instead of an air assist, of exceeding some other design factor in the steering system due to the incompressibility of the oil, and breaking some other, possibly more critical component? After all, we are dealing with 1948 engineering and design limitations here.
In any case, doc, I don't know what you do as a medico, but drive your deuce enough on the rockpile and you will be one buff MD. Have a safe and happy Holiday season,

Cheers,

Kyle F. McGrogan

 

[usmarines72]

I have an air-o-matic on my M35A2C and only really use it when navigating through my little town at low speeds. It esp comes in handy when making a hard right turn from a stopped position. Most times I need to veer into the oncoming traffic lane, now I can stay in my lane and do the usual gear shifts. If anything I look at the system as a safety feature rather than a creature comfort item (does creature comfort even pertain to MV's?)

 

[swbradley1]

creature comfort item (does creature comfort even pertain to MV's?)

Creature comfort, maybe if you are a Klingon.





sw

 

[Scarecrow1]

Ok Doc you should know there's noway your going to walk around 5 days a week with a pen and pad taking notes and shaking hands , and beat the crap out of your body on the week end. It dosen't matter what age you are . Put a little time in a the gym every day and Ibuprofen always helps too. I drove a truck 25 years with no power steering you can get used to it . I'm sorry but its sad to even think that people are attempting to make these hard core legends into a SUV . Whats next air conditioning , airbags , cup holders carpet and padding through out, surround sound and a DVD player in the dash and blue tooth compliant. Suck it up and go hard core Doc you'll like your self better in the long run ......

 

[ALFA2]

Hello Glj, there are several ways to do a hydro steering upgrade to a Deuce, and some very capable people on this site have done those and are using them now. There are at least two people who are currently working to put together what appears to be a KIT of parts to add such an upgrade, to a Deuce, you can search for it on this forum. The simple physical difference with a Hydrolic gear box with a hydrolic Ram Assist is that with any size tires, a lazy 5 year old kid can easily turn the wheel lock to lock, and not be leaning into it, to do it. Also, the feedback from the road is greatly reduced with hydrolic ram assist power-steering, and the from end alignment needs to be especially set for larger and radial tires and hydrolic power-steering, ( camber, caster, and especialy tow-in), to make the best use of the upgrade. ( to reduce almost all feedback use a larger diameter ram on the axle).

I hope this helps some in your search.

ALFA2

 

[toddm]

After I installed my air-o-matic on my Duece, I noticed it acted like a giant steering stabilizer. It really smoothed out any unwanted steering wheel movement. It seems to work best when I'm in tight situations. For the price I paid for it I am very happy with the way it works. Almost forgot, I'm running 11.00-20 single's.

 

[11Echo]

There is plenty of excellent information in this thread.
When I bought my M342A2 I intended to use and enjoy it as much as possible. I sometimes carry a lot of weight on my truck. After a few days here and there of hauling dirt, gravel, and such I was longing for the power steering of my IH dump. Even with the Marshall plow on the front of the IH it only required a couple fingers to go lock to lock. I purchased a surplus steering assist kit and installed it as directed on my tipper. Wow, what a difference. It is by no means as easy steering as true hydraulic power steering, never will be that good but, a vast improvement over "Armstrong" assist.

My M35 came from the Army with the "power assist" already installed. It drove very well. I've since "singled out" the truck with 11R20's and it drives even better!

 

[kochevnik]

Hello Glj, there are several ways to do a hydro steering upgrade to a Deuce, and some very capable people on this site have done those and are using them now. There are at least two people who are currently working to put together what appears to be a KIT of parts to add such an upgrade, to a Deuce, you can search for it on this forum.

Maybe I missed something or there are some PMs going around, but I've been following and pushing the PS mod threads as much as possible and I don't know of anyone working on a 'kit'. Sephirothq has some parts available for a (as in one) hydro-assist mod, but that's about all I am aware of - please feel free to link to any threads where this is discussed I am very interested.

As for power steering, the two best mods I have seen are M35-Tom's and Gringeltaube's. Do a search on power steering and a lot of threads will come up. I personally am planning on adding PS as one of my first mods - I'm working on sources for all the parts right now. Your best bet is to review those PS threads (or hve your mechanic do it) but there's probably a lot of different ways to skin this cat and I bet your mechanic would have some good ideas on what to do. Good luck.

 

[glj]

And Gentlemen,

"Suck it up?" What a curious remark. Well, I will proceed. I would like to thank all who have been thoughtful enough to take your time in giving me a hand with the question I posed. Special thanks to Clinton ( C @ C Equipment), Kyle, and ALPHA2, and others, for their very pertinent replys.

Please let me fill some gaps in this story. I picked the mounted tires up at the distribution dock. They are the military Goodyear MV/T 395/85 (largest tires you can run on M35A2 without interferrence problems) mounted on Clinton's proprietary two piece wheel that is nothing less than a beauty, not to mention the functional attributes that he incorporated in this wheel. (Clinton, it is indeed a work of beauty as it sits and draws ones' attention immediately to the wheels/tires.)

Now, things happened rather rapidly. Recall that 1100 mile drive from Spokane, some in snow, and the last 300 miles with the benefit of air assist installed by Boyce in Ogden, UT. (Some more "buff" than I pronounce the accomplishment of a 150 mile drive as a true feat.) The first 800 miles was a new experience, and would be even for the "buff." I know because I am in that category. Out of high school in the mid 60's I drove a 10 wheeler to LA each day, without PS. Muscle has memory and it is task specific. You can be buff, but if your effort is rechannelled all bets are off. So, it was indeed great to have the air assist.

Therefore, I have no beef with the power assist. With the original military tires (?11:00/20?) and the dually configuration it was sweet sixteen all over again. I could have (and did, in fact) get a date to ride with me to the boonies. Remember my rocky test hill? On the first test, duals, air assist and all, we made the accent with no problem. Tires would be wedged between rocks and other challenges galoor. But it accomplished the feat with grace, and I had no complaints, although there was brief, intermittant loss of traction.

The next day I installed Clinton's wheel/tire combo beauties. Now this is the single greatest change in variables that some did not address, yet in my opinion it is the most important variable we are dealing with. I did not mention this in my first letter to you ladies and geltlemen, but after I picked them up at the dock I had them installed imediately, then drove the 20 miles to home. The truck suffered severe ubderstear and I had difficulty staying in my lane as it was drifting all over the road, requiring much correction. That is the evening I took it out to my 8 million acre background (BLM), and I had the experience described in my first note. A wheel striking a pebble at 15 mph was as bad as the hill climb experience, and I think I should emphasize that..

I then read up on Steel Soldiers and found how important caster and toe can be to road handling. Next day to the diesel factory for a competent allignment. The toe required a small adjustnent, but the caster was neg. 2.7 deg. on the right and neg. 2.4 deg. on the left. If you've read about, or are otherwise aware, caster is extremely important wirh these vehicles, apparently. I've studied this forum thoroughly and the caster is adjusted anywhere between 3 deg and 8 deg positive, depending on who you read. Because I had one U-bolt that was short this limitted the amount of shimming that I could do on the left, but we were able to improve from negative 2.5 approximately to positive 0.4 on both sides.

This made all the difference in the world. No more road fighting. Rides like a properly alligned A2 ought to, and in close or tight spots at low speed the air assist was welome and performed as it should. Therefore, Clinton, your wheels/tires are functionally as beautiful as they are aesthetically.

But, they are very large tires and there does appear to be a consensus in the literature that an appropriately designed hydraulic assist (not full hydraulic) is vastly superior to air. See below:

"So you have big tires and you like the rocks, both are great but together they can be a nightmare when it comes to navigating your ride, upgrading to a hydro assist setup is almost a must."


The above comes from an ad, but there is indeed much discussion in this forum where all contributors seem to agree. These are older discussions (approx. 2007) so my intent here was to find what the current thinking might be. That is why my only real question is "Do you agree that hydraulic assist is superior in rocky conditions to air assist, and are conversion kits available?" I think the second question has been answered, but answers to the first included "suck it up and get buff" (or some variation on the theme) and comments perhaps relating to my being a physician.


To summarize, there are no issues presently, on the highway, unless I hit a small rock. I have not taken the rig out again, but I am quite certain that the allingment and correcting castor will not improve off road performance. I will be getting a longer U-bolt so I can adjust caster to about 3 deg. positive before I take it out again. But still, while it might improve highway performance even more, it will not likely improve off road performance.


I will modify the above slightly. I was concerned that going super six might decrease traction because there is less rubber on the road (by way of a calculation). However, while the original tires slipped a bit on the mostly hard ground and rocks, there was not an inch of slip with the super six arrangement. (My wife always gets out and walks up this hill. Won't ride with me. But she does study and report traction signs, etc..)


A quick thought, harking back to Clintons' suggestion. I left something out. As I approached the top of the hill the low pressure warning came on. This did not happen with the original, smaller tires; and both times I basically "idled" up the hill. It now becomes evident that my problems, which seem to be uniquely severe, may indeed be due to low pressure. Low rpm's and lots of air demand negotiating the rocks; that may be it. I will follow Clintons" suggestion; but I'm still inclined to believe (from what I've read) that hydraulic assist will perform better. Let's see if we can get a consensus: hydraulic or air assist better, or equal.

Sincerely,



Gary L. Jones, MD, PHD
Snow Canyon Clinic
www.snowcanyonclinic.com



M35A2 and ammo trailer
Studebaker speed
Marksmanship (eyeball at 2000 meters with Chey Tac 408, M-200)

 

[glj]

Ok Doc you should know there's noway your going to walk around 5 days a week with a pen and pad taking notes and shaking hands , and beat the crap out of your body on the week end. It dosen't matter what age you are . Put a little time in a the gym every day and Ibuprofen always helps too. I drove a truck 25 years with no power steering you can get used to it . I'm sorry but its sad to even think that people are attempting to make these hard core legends into a SUV . Whats next air conditioning , airbags , cup holders carpet and padding through out, surround sound and a DVD player in the dash and blue tooth compliant. Suck it up and go hard core Doc you'll like your self better in the long run ......

I understand that your response is likely well meaning, but it doesn't address the question, and it comes across as pretentious, presumptuous and perjorative. I am a neurologist, save lives and "like myself just fine," thank you. In fact, I am a physician-scientist, the Ph.D. being in pharmacology. This means I understand how to treat pain perhaps better than most physicians. Those of us that are successful in life know how to "suck it up" and deal with it, and it happens often in this profession. While in practice we have to forfeit the politics in favor of the patient. Your experiences with physicians may well involve the "pen and pad" type. In every profession there are the good, the bad, and the ugly.

I am indeed personally in extremely good health and my physical conditioning and training allows me the confidence I might (and have) required in certain situations. The conditioning remarks have no relevance.

Now, let me apalogize to you. I realize that I am a bit sensitive, and defensive in my response, and the reasons are largely political. If things go as intended by our administration, when I retire in two years the number of practicing physicians in America will be reduced by at least 15% and there will be an acute health manpower shortage. Both yourself and me, and our families will not have the access to excellence that we now enjoy. To see who I am you might visit www.snowcanyonclinic.com. We already do more cheritable work than the "non-profit" hospitals. I'm with you regarding your other remarks. Where we disagree is with PS, I suppose.

Sincerely,

Gary L. Jones, MD, PHD
Owner, Snow Canyon Clinic

 

[ALFA2]

Glj, the hydraulic ram assist power steering box that powers of of the stock LDS 465 PS pump is physically able to put out roughly 3.5 times the assist to the wheels, then the Air Assist unit. Also, the Air assist draws on the air reserve that is also used by the break system, and must be available in volume and pressure, to work the breaks and then the Air assist. In an off-road up hill drive, this would use more air than is normally available with stock air tanks, and at idle speed, the air is not replaced by the air compressor as fast as it would be at 20+ MPH. The Hydraulic PS with ram assist does not need a reserve or storage of fluid, as the is a constant supply from the PS pump, almost the same at any speed, and there are no other accessories that use the PS pump's volume and or pressure, as there are no other hydraulic devices that run from this pump on the Deuce. So basically this is stronger and safer to do and use, on or off road, as has been done in over the road trucks of much greater weight and size for many years, in 2 and 3 axle combinations. Any of the PS gear boxes that have been used in the last 30 + years have built in shock absorption and stabilization capabilities that are already in there, The Ross Box 5400 series box has it, and so does the Saginaw 710 series box, whichever one you like best, also ether comes with a provision for the lines to and from the hydraulic assist ram on the axle. There is a aftermarket co., on the web, that makes a bolt-on bracket that bolts to the pumpkin on to the differential housing, to add a large Hydro assist ram to the Rockwell 2.5 ton axle, with no welding needed, and you can choose the size of the ram diameter. This bracket seems thoughtfully and well made, ( Heavy Duty ) and can be removed if not needed, or for service.

Good luck,

ALFA2

 

[gringeltaube]

Well explained, ALFA2!

Needless to say that with a "normal" PS box set-up we are limited to the shear strength of the 4 studs holding the stock steering arm to the steering knuckle. So far this seems to be the "weak link" of the kind of conversions I have done, although I have not encountered any problems there, yet....
While that could certainly be improved (better steel/larger diam. bolts, additional bracing) such a ram added, acting directly on the cross link (NOT THE DRAG LINK!) would be of great benefit for serious off-roading with X-large tires and not affecting the stock steering arm fixture at all.

My response to the OP's original Q: PS (any kind of assist) is a must whenever switching to radials 14.5 or wider, mounted on 10 -11" wide wheels.
It was already mentioned that the caster needs to be readjusted (->+3) to avoid wandering. This alone will increase steering effort significantly!...

Another fact is that the OEM pitman arm is very short (only 5 3/8" center distance). That implies that with axle articulation (suspension fully extended on the drivers side and/or after re-arching springs by just 1 1/2"!) the original set-up is un-able to achieve a full right turn...
Also with wide radials and maintaining the stock manual steering I found the "bump-steer effect" to be more noticeable . A longer pitman arm will help correct the drag link inclination but also increases steering effort...

Plenty of reasons to replace our stock manual ROSS with one that was designed for the leverage of a 8" pitman arm, IMHO.

G.

 

[Jakelc15]

The Ross Box 5400 series box has it, and so does the Saginaw 710 series box, whichever one you like best, also ether comes with a provision for the lines to and from the hydraulic assist ram on the axle. There is a aftermarket co., on the web, that makes a bolt-on bracket that bolts to the pumpkin on to the differential housing, to add a large Hydro assist ram to the Rockwell 2.5 ton axle, with no welding needed, and you can choose the size of the ram diameter. This bracket seems thoughtfully and well made, ( Heavy Duty ) and can be removed if not needed, or for service.

Good luck,

ALFA2

Good to know these boxes are ported for assist already.

What company sells this bracket you speak of?
Thanks

 

[1stDeuce]

Gary, I think you've gotten some good suggestions from ALFA2 and Gringeltaube. You're really looking at re-designing a steering system for your specific use, as you've changed enough of the basic characteristics of the truck as to be outside the original design envelope completely.

I think the most obvious change, and one that nobody has mentioned, is that you've changed the offset of the wheel, and effectively moved the tire centerline outboard by several inches, if I'm not mistaken. I don't have the specs for the C&C wheels, which are awesome, btw, but by looking at pics, I'd bet you moved the centerline out by some 3" or so.

This is going to greatly increasy any tendency for the truck to bump steer, as the tire encountering a bump will now want to turn the steering, rather than being in line with the steering axis and just roll straight over. (Do a little reading about keeping the center of the contact patch in line with the king pin axis...)

It makes sense to me that you're fighting it a lot more now, and explains why you're having such a hard time with such a relatively small change in tire size. (somewhat equivalent to going from 245/75R16's to 33" tires on a 3/4 ton truck...)

This problem is not somethign you can "fix" with any power steering, but rather you need to correct the offset problem. I don't think that's going to be easy, so stronger steering to cover it up is about your only choice. If this were a Jeep or pickup, I'd tell you to pick up an nice big aftermarket steering damper, which will help prevent feedback to the wheel... For an M35, you'll need a couple at least, and to some extent, your air assist is doing that already!

Read up a bit, and you might ffigure something out, but I think you're on the right track...

C&C, is there any way to make the wheels with more offset, ie deeper backspacing? I know at some point turning will be hindered by tire contact with steering arms and such, but this is the price we pay for running much larger tires than the truck was designed for... Just curious...

Chris

 

[emr]

Ok Doc you should know there's noway your going to walk around 5 days a week with a pen and pad taking notes and shaking hands , and beat the crap out of your body on the week end. It dosen't matter what age you are . Put a little time in a the gym every day and Ibuprofen always helps too. I drove a truck 25 years with no power steering you can get used to it . I'm sorry but its sad to even think that people are attempting to make these hard core legends into a SUV . Whats next air conditioning , airbags , cup holders carpet and padding through out, surround sound and a DVD player in the dash and blue tooth compliant. Suck it up and go hard core Doc you'll like your self better in the long run ......

I have to say as i see a responce to this advise from the poster, it really is the best to me, I read it as for what it is a good ol" how to do it" by another mans view, one I happen to agree with, ALL in good faith and humor of course, but all in all, these are tactical trucks and that is what i prefer, Heat? Power steering yeesh......whats this world coming too, i say top down windshield down in December and go for it......I can drive my Deuce and park it with one hand in my 50s and proud of it, ......I take things as a challenge and go for it , but thats just me, and since this thread is about just that , we get to chime in, please do not mind...To each his own, so get what u need and enjoy that fine machine...But a little work is what these trucks are really about to me and some others...I do admit in the 813 it sure is sweet to steer that sweet heart... and in the 925 i refuse to turn on the heat, ...We will see how long that lasts, big difference in haveing a heater and putting one in i am noticing....all the best with your truck, ...!!!

 

[ccequipment]

C&C, is there any way to make the wheels with more offset, ie deeper backspacing? I know at some point turning will be hindered by tire contact with steering arms and such, but this is the price we pay for running much larger tires than the truck was designed for... Just curious...

Chris[/quote]
We are limited by a couple things on the backspacing, one is the size of tires that most people want to run which is the 46" size. With anymore backspacing you will be hitting inner fenders when turning and so on. The other is we are limited to what we can do because of the placement of the hemmt center. When you do any kind of modifcation to anything, there will always be good and bad things come about. When installing bigger tires you will affect your steering, axels brakes and so on, but this is traded off by things like top speed, looks, tire life, and off road performance and so on. I have installed many of these tire and wheel combos and driven many trucks on and off road, the advatages far outweight the negatives, but I am young man and its an army truck. People always ask me, so how do they drive and ride, I say its an army truck and not a Cadillac by no means at all.