Second Gear

[Billy Bobbed]

What I need to know is do you have a problem getting in second gear sitting still at a stop.

 

[rat4spd]

What I need to know is do you have a problem getting in second gear sitting still at a stop.

Yes and no. It's natural tendency is to resist, however, as another person mentioned, let the clutch out a tiny bit, and it will go in. Downshift to second prior to stopping. It takes some getting used to.

 

[tm america]

a simple sulution to this problem is to use this as your shift pattern. second in the trans low in t case then second in hte trans high in the t case then keep the t case in high and go through the rest of the gears this gives you similar ratios without having to use the non syncroed first gear of the trans . remember the transfer case is syncroed.. i put my transfer case in neutral at stops if im gonna be sitting for awhile.or you can go trans second t case low then trans third t case low then trans third t case high and then keep the t case in high and go throught the rest of the gears.using second in the trans with the t case in low gives you slightly less gear ratio than having the trans in 1st transfer case in high and it is easier to shift that way to.either way it lessens the load on the trans

 

[tm america]

i do have an issue going into second at a complete stop but you should alway be down shifting as you are going to a stop anyway so you are not in neutral if the brakes were to fail.i'm sure the syncro is worn out and the engaging teeth on second are probably beat up to

 

[roger-wilco-66]

I used to take off in the second gear (with the usual hazzle of it not going in etc), then I did split shifting (low tc + 2nd gear ff), which seemed to be easier on the clutch, and in the meanwhile I discovered that taking off in the first is just fine! It has become a habit and I don't even think about it anymore. I only take off in the second when I'm facing downhill and the vehicle almost starts to roll by itself.
All deuces I have laid my hand on, as well as the one I own, were hard to get into the second at a complete stop. I came to think that this is normal.

@tm america, about downshifting, I thouhgt I have read in some OM/PS article that one should not do this if the truck is loaded?

Cheers,
Mark

 

[Billy Bobbed]

I dont like to sit at a stop light very long with my foot on the clutch.Trying not to wear out the thout bearing.A lot of times I take it out of gear way before I stop at the stop sign,and just roll up to it.Then when I try to put it second it sometimes does not want to go in.

 

[73X]

I also do not sit at lights with my foot on the clutch. Second gear is 9 out of 10 right there no problem the other 1 I go to third then right into second.

 

[mudguppy]

my trans is usually quite unwilling to go into 2nd sitting still or rolling.

also, it is completely irrational to say that starting in second puts more torque on the input or mainshaft, because in fact, 1st puts the most torque through the trans - period.

however, if starting in second from a stand-still and the clutch is dumped rather than slipped or is getting worn and chattering, then torque spikes could cause the keys on the 2nd gear to shear. so, if i had soldiers driving my truck, i'd tell them to start in 1st, too.

but 2nd gear cannot create more ultimate torque than 1st.

 

[tmbrwolf]

I'll wade into the fray on this one, I have rebuilt numerous tranny's and transfers in our shop, first the second gear is held with only one woodruff key, I get a couple of trannys in the shop every year that have lost 2nd gear, almost every time it is from a sheared key, when I question the offending fire department I find almost every time they "start in second gear" guys and gals it is the weak link in the tranny, since we are talking fire trucks here they are allways loaded putting extra stress on the whole system when starting out. I don't recommend anything but starting out in first, never broke a tranny doing that.
"Split shifting" the transfer is also not recommended, that transfer in these trucks was never designed for it and I have also repaired a bunch from departments where they have done that (usually ones that have a truck driver), at a minimum it causes excessive wear to the shift collar in the transfer usually the first time you notice a problem is it will start "jumping out of range", By the time that happens the damage is done and it's gonna get real expensive real fast! I have also seen the collars shattered and laying in the bottom of the case from doing that, again not a recommended practice. My .02 worth for you all but considering 30+ years working on these beasts! When in doubt, read the manual!

 

[JTugwell]

Yes and no. It's natural tendency is to resist, however, as another person mentioned, let the clutch out a tiny bit, and it will go in. Downshift to second prior to stopping. It takes some getting used to.

mine does the same. i always put it into second right before it stops moving. slides right in. if i dont its just like yours. a crap shoot if it will go back in.

 

[m-35tom]

it is normal for the 2nd gear not to engage when stopped. the syncro dogs are fairly blunt and will not always push their way in. just keep pressure on them and very gently ease the clutch out until you feel them start to go in and then push clutch back in.

there is absolutely no reason not to start out in 2nd if you know how to use the clutch properly. don't slip it and don't engage it too quickly. you can do more damage to the trans starting in 1st if you try to, and since there is no reverse lock out there is always that risk.

tom

 

[emr]

may sound silly but ...FEEL your truck, do not rush your shifts or force them, relaxe and let the truck tell u what it wants, learn how to drive your truck, every truck has its ways, There will always be some who know more than the manufacturer, Please do not listen , always start out in first, anyone can come up with an opinion to make what they do right, Start out in first, come to a complete stop when at all possible, when U get to know your truck u wil find the 2nd gear is there for U, U may go to 3rd for a second and then to second, or just be patient, and stop, U are not going that fast in these trucks anyway. Practice in an open area, there U will be able to come to a rolling stop and learn what your truck wants and u can stop and think and absorb it all, this is how real experience is learned. take the time to practice, but remember to be patient,,,,,,randy

 

[emr]

If I kill second gear in the process, it deserved it.[/quote]


Please do not mind the reply, If your second goes , and it may never , It will only be driver error, not the trucks fault...Now i am just stating a fact because so many guys blame there trucks when things go wrong, Like the tires got me stuck is the one that makes me laugh the loudest...just saying i am sure u said it in jest, But it will only go if it is over driven and/or over loaded,none the trucks fault ...Randy

 

[martinsaunders06]

been using 2nd gear for 8 plus years in same truck(certainly on the flat) with no probs, you just have know when you can and when you cant. I ve found when you drive the same vehicle for a long time you know and feel what shes happy with and whats possible. ?Just a thought whats it idling at coz if its too fast that wont help
martin

 

[rat4spd]

Please do not mind the reply, If your second goes , and it may never , It will only be driver error, not the trucks fault...Now i am just stating a fact because so many guys blame there trucks when things go wrong, Like the tires got me stuck is the one that makes me laugh the loudest...just saying i am sure u said it in jest, But it will only go if it is over driven and/or over loaded,none the trucks fault ...Randy

No offense taken emr, but I have yet to see any literature from the manufacturer or the Army that states this practice can do harm.

However, even if there was, anyone can break anything if they try hard enough. I'm not driving an AED (automated external defibrillator), or any other life saving machine, nor an I putting the public at risk.

I do however know how to drive my truck, and there is no stress in my take offs. I also take full repsonsibility for any damage I may do in the process and given that, I will still use second gear. Like I said, and you quoted, if second gear can't handle the powder puff takeoffs I give it, then it deserves to die,

I won't complain about it, I won't blame anyone, I'll get another transmission. Heck, they give these things away anyway. I don't understand the attitude that we are abusing FAA type certified equipment.

But I digress.

 

[Billy Bobbed]

I tried today to take off in 1st gear all day.I cannot get enough momentum to finally get it in 2nd gear,im barely moving to justify doing it.It seems 2nd gear fights to go in when I go from 1st to 2nd.The other gears are fine going in.

 

[stumps]

I have driven cars, tractors, and trucks with clutches for about 35 years... I even know how to drive trucks that have crash boxes... I may be wrong, but I think I know how to drive a clutch properly.

When I first got my deuce, I noticed that it was going pretty slow when I got to redline in first gear, so I figured, why not just start out in second?...

Nope, no way, no more! Second is too tall!

The truck humped and bucked, the rear wheels skipped and shuddered... I could feel the drive train winding up, and unwinding.... That simply has to be bad for it! Maybe my clutch has more than the usual amount of chatter for a deuce, but I doubt it.... not when it starts out so smoothly from first.

All you need from first gear is to get your truck rolling. Nothing more.

If you can't get into 2nd gear once you are moving, check carefully how you are shifting. Your transmission will not be at all amused if you try to move diagonally from first gear, through neutral, to second... sloppy shifting is ok in a sports car, but not a truck! Your truck wants to see you do all of your shifting in a perfectly square HW pattern. If you force it diagonally, it isn't going into second gear! Ditto for all of the other gears. Square shifting is the order for the deuce.

If you find you have trouble doing square shifts, relax your meaty grip from the shift lever. Grip it loosely, like a bird you are trying not to kill. Always pause in neutral. Doing those two things will give the shifter its own head, and allow it to move the way it wants to be moved.

-Chuck

 

[73m819]

I tried today to take off in 1st gear all day.I cannot get enough momentum to finally get it in 2nd gear,im barely moving to justify doing it.It seems 2nd gear fights to go in when I go from 1st to 2nd.The other gears are fine going in.

sounds like worn second synco. this will cause this everytime

 

[OPCOM]

Would someone please help me understand why we should not take off in second gear? Why would the load on second gear with an empty truck be any worse than taking off in first gear with a loaded truck and shifting to second. Or even shifting to second on a hill. I am not sure the torque load is enough to cause a problem if the truck is empty even with taller tires.

1.) the deuce transmission is barely adequate for the job. It was barely adequate for the gasser engine which is a bit less powerful than the multifuel and also has less torque at the lowest end.

2.) When the truck is put in gear and set into motion, the engaging of the clutch jerks the driveline. Starting in 2nd makes the clutch slip alot more, and this jerks the driveline more, and is much harder on the transmission than starting in 1st. It is about twice as hard on it. It would be like using a deuce transmission in perhaps an M818 a 5 ton or other 20,000 lb truck with an NHC250 or other 500-600 FT LB engine. It will work for a while.

3.) Second gear is a known weak gear as is 5th. 2nd does not have needle bearings but rides on a film of oil. It also has very small oil holes for lubing it. The side loads between it and the shaft it spins on can exceed the ability of the oil film and cause rubbing of metal when the truck is put into motion in 2nd.

4.) Slipping the clutch to gently start in 2nd in the 13500 lb truck wears the clutch very badly. The only time 2nd is a good first gear is if you are pointing down hill and can roll up to about 3MPH before engaging the clutch.

These things eventually will cause destruction of transmission and clutch parts. Doing them with the tall tires causes a further torque load increase of 46/41 (tire dia.) or 12% more.

There might be more reasons why not to start out in 2nd gear. The experts should say, and/or correct my statements.

 

[tm america]

yes the deuce trans is weak for the weight of the truck it is in .but second gear is not that big of a failure point fifth and the input shaft seem to be the main things that fail .using first on an unloaded truck seems useless. it is to much ratio and it is a non syncronized gear which makes shifting from first to second not so fun.and having to come to a complete stop to go into first isnt much fun either .i dont think you could ever break second gear by using it to start off with a stock deuce that is not overloaded. has anyone ever broken second gear when taking off