Grade 8 Bolts

[paulfarber]

I'm glad this didn't devolve into a China bashing thread. China has some good stuff now, unlike 20 years ago. Yes, they still sell junk THAT AMERICAN COMPANIES BUY but of all the 'junk' chinese stuff I have bought none of them ever claimed to meed any standard.

I do recall the FAA issue, but a lot of it now a days is that since America doesn't MAKE anything we spend all out money on the admin side of products... like 6 Sigma, ISO, etc. We can't make a bolt (that would pollute the environment) but we can cut down a forest for paper to tell everyone else how they should be made

FWIW I get the 50Lb bag a Alpo, and I generally grab a handful of grade 3 nuts/bolts/washers and screws. They TSC locally used to have a pretty full lube aisle... now its down to almost nothing.

 

[NMC_EXP]

If this is true I'd think that would be illegal and could set them up for a big lawsuit if somebody got hurt when one of the bolts break. I would think TSC would have more sense than that.

At Caterpillar we fought not just junk aftermarket bolts that ended up on CAT machines but garbage counterfeit parts maked with the CAT logo.

The govt does not inspect the quality and fitness for use of imported parts.

Neither do retailers such as Tractor Supply.

The problem is "globalization" and the de-industrialization of the US.

Regards

Jim

 

[hemichallenger]

The bolts TSC sells are chinese , again I use em, but just trying to save a life/limb.

I also find this to be true. I have snapped bolts from tsc with an air gun that will not snap the same bolts from our local bolt company. I to use there bolts for many things but they are not made in the USA.

 

[jesusgatos]

Doesn't CAT make their own hardware? Or at least sell their own line of hardware? I remember reading on race-dezert.com that it's a great source for high-quality fasteners.

 

[wbdodgeiv]

if you want a real good bolt order some L9 they are around 180000 tensile st. expensive but worth it . i use them on the backhoe when a grade 8 breaks i replace it with them ,so far no more breaking with L9s

You have to be careful with grade 9 bolts such as L9 or Bowmalloy as there is no standard that all the bolts are required to adhere to as there is with Gr 8. Replacing one grade 9 with a grade 9 from a different manufacture is not recommended. Also the higher the tensile strength the more likely you are to have hydrogen embrittlement or stress corrosion cracking.

Our fastenal rep at work alluded they their main supplier of bolts dosent even make gr 5, they use grade 8 and mark it as grade 5. If you buy in large enough quantities 8 and 5 cost almost the same.

I buy all my bolts through fastenal, they have lot tracking and can trace it all the way back to when the bolt was made. That and the 80% discount off list

I forgot to add that the Bowman Fastener Facts book is a very good reference as far as designing bolted connections. Lots off good material.

 

[wldrbob]

well maybe.. but the L9 i got from aclands granger are lasting way better than the grade 8 i also got from aclands

 

[paulfarber]

At Caterpillar we fought not just junk aftermarket bolts that ended up on CAT machines but garbage counterfeit parts maked with the CAT logo.

The govt does not inspect the quality and fitness for use of imported parts.

Neither do retailers such as Tractor Supply.

The problem is "globalization" and the de-industrialization of the US.

Regards

Jim

No, the problem is that a CEO will make MILLIONS of dollars a year, add nothing to the value of the part, or even have a vague idea HOW to make the part. But stockholders require a board, the Board needs a CEO, and they ALL get paid for doing pretty much NOTHING.

How much do you think it takes to make a $5 bolt? Less than a dollar. Where does that other $4 go? Not into making better bolts.

China is cheap becuase they yet to add the 4 layers of management the US has to get something done.

Want to end China? Unionize and/or hire MBA's to run the place. Add in a dose of environmental wackjobs and you have the $5 bolt made in China.

Just heard the in the news today the eco-nuts (The Sierra Club) want to shut down the largest refinery in Texas. That's smart. $10/gal gas is good for everyone.

 

[dirtyfingernails]

You know what they say. If it's too good to be true, it probably is.

 

[NMC_EXP]

Doesn't CAT make their own hardware? Or at least sell their own line of hardware? I remember reading on race-dezert.com that it's a great source for high-quality fasteners.

CAT does not make their own bolts etc but uses and sells them made to CAT specs and branded with the CAT logo.

Back before the MBA's took over the company, CAT tested stuff like bolts to see if it met the print and specs. Now CAT gives it's suppliers a magical ISO-9000 plaque to hang on the wall. The MBA's figure that magical plaque has enough ju-ju to make the supplier ship nothing but good parts to CAT....besides, that magical plaque is a lot cheaper than having your own Quality Control Dept. That is why the MBA's are running everything....they're just so **** smart.

All that aside, if you need top end fastners, you have as good or better a chance of finding top grade bolts at a CAT dealer as anywhere else. At least CAT bolts have a print and set of specs that the suppliers try to meet.

Be sure to bring lots of money. Probably not $2.99 per lb like the garbage from New Dehli or Shanghai.

Regards

Jim

 

[NMC_EXP]

No, the problem is that a CEO will make MILLIONS of dollars a year, add nothing to the value of the part, or even have a vague idea HOW to make the part. But stockholders require a board, the Board needs a CEO, and they ALL get paid for doing pretty much NOTHING.

How much do you think it takes to make a $5 bolt? Less than a dollar. Where does that other $4 go? Not into making better bolts.

Paul

Globalization and the de-industrialization of the US are the problem.

As to the CEO's and the interlocking boards of directors of the Fortune 500, who do you reckon came up with the idea of closing factories in the US and moving the machinery & equipment to places with $0.10 per hour labor?

Wasn't the unions.

Wasn't even common folk in service jobs and agriculture and mining.

The idea came from the corporate elite.

As to a $5 dollar bolt - I was an engineer at Caterpillar Inc for 30 yrs. I understand the differences between material cost and labor cost, and between fixed costs and variable costs.

You are correct about what offshoring has done to the profit margins.

That really helped my 401K, how about you?

But at least we can still buy Chinese plastic stuff at Walmart with one of our non-maxed out plastic cards.

Life is good.

Regards

Jim

 

[Tinwoodsman]

I used Fastenal instead of TSC because I wanted fine thread Grade 8's.

 

[trukhead]

Oh nutz, an bolts...

I like fastenal and pay what ever cause I want the local business to survive. I ask fort USA made stuff and will alk out empty handed if I can't get it as USA made.

The free trade deals coming up are bad deals for the USA

 

[rz14rt]

Another interesting thread, there is no end to them!
Bolts of a finer thread are stronger. Much stronger, but the reason is not in the joint but in the effective diameter of the bolt. Because fine threads are smaller there is more room for a solid bolt diameter under them. This is called the root diameter. A 1/2-13 bolt has a nominal root diameter of about 0.400 inches. Compare this to a 1/2-20 bolt with a root diameter of 0.435 or a 1/2-24 bolt with a root diameter of 0.4459 and the strength difference is clear.
The problem with Chinese bolts or any component is consistancy. I have validated components from China in the lab as part of quality control when adding them as a new supplier along with visiting the actual manufacturing site to validate the manufacturing process and controls. The results were very good. A year later we experience failures in the field and start an investigation. After a LOT of work with little help from our new supplier we find out the documented plant does not exist anymore and our component is made in three other undocumented and uncontrolled sites. Total deceit in this case and a lot of risk for us.
TSC will have all the paperwork showing thier bolts are top quality, lord knows what is in the bins however. But gosh are they cheap!

 

[trukhead]

Cheap Stuff...

Yes, Items from china are cheap. Kind of like he cheapening of the American economy and our ability to make things. Corporations are making record profits and we have 10% unemployment. I've been noticing that I am paying American made prices for chinese made stuff like the belt of the cub cadet.

The 21si delco si alternator I recently purchased for $99 down from the list price of $279.99 is a recent exception. I plan to repair the duece alternator it is intended to replace but paying any more than 99 I would have wanted a USA made item. I notice a lot of $2-350 range alternators are sold that are produced in china.

What kind of future do you want for your children and their children? what kind of future can you imagine when the chinese or other foreigners own the American companies that the future generations will be working for. Do you think they will pay them any better than they pay theiir own citizens?

Time to vote for some different politicians.

I buy American whenever I can.

 

[Kalashnikov]

I haven't used CAT bolts but we use Lawson hardware at work for out collision repair equipment. Thicker nuts, thicker washers, thicker bolt heads, and just plain better quality. They are grade 8+ and grade 9 all laebled for your convience. They are expensive but the best I have seen.
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[Albin]

You have to be careful with grade 9 bolts such as L9 or Bowmalloy as there is no standard that all the bolts are required to adhere to as there is with Gr 8. Replacing one grade 9 with a grade 9 from a different manufacture is not recommended. Also the higher the tensile strength the more likely you are to have hydrogen embrittlement or stress corrosion cracking.

Our fastenal rep at work alluded they their main supplier of bolts dosent even make gr 5, they use grade 8 and mark it as grade 5. If you buy in large enough quantities 8 and 5 cost almost the same.

I buy all my bolts through fastenal, they have lot tracking and can trace it all the way back to when the bolt was made. That and the 80% discount off list

I forgot to add that the Bowman Fastener Facts book is a very good reference as far as designing bolted connections. Lots off good material.

I too use Fastenal for all my bolt needs. Of course, talk is cheap for me since I pass them every day on the way to work, the manager greets me by name when I come in and on top of that, I get the 25-40% Boring discount.

Fastenal used to have a great little bolt reference guide, but I don't see if on their site anymore. It's a .pdf and I'll see if I can post it tomorrow.

Another source for higher strength bolts are Socket Head Cap Screws meeting the ASTM A574 spec. Tensile strength for these fasteners is 180 KSI 1/2" and below and 170 KSI over 1/2" (vs. 150 KSI for SAE J429 Grade 8 specd bolts).

A little tidbit of history: The bolt problem of the '80's started when Chinese bolts started showing up on the B-2 Stealth Bomber wing production line up at the Development Center in Seattle where Boring made the wings for the B-2. Didn't come out until after the first flight in 1989 when Boring's part in the program was declassified.

Al

 

[jesusgatos]

Fastenal is a ripoff unless you're getting the type of discounts you guys are talking about...

 

[Tinwoodsman]

I am confused. Fastenal is too expensive but they provide quality product, good service and good distribution locations. Maybe they should move overseas.

 

[jesusgatos]

Maybe it's just me, but the few fastenals that I've been to have had a piss-poor selection of hardware (worse than Ace) and their prices are much higher than what I'd pay for similar specialty hardware online (including shipping). I'm all for quality, but not price gouging.

 

[73m819]

I have fastenal here in town, there is also a local industrial nut and bolt supply house that I ues, THREADS SOUTH ("we have the right screw for you") better prices, better stock, better service, all US made, and can get special orders (even some strange hardware) by 1100 am the next day, if I order before 2:00 pm